I folded the river.. just think this spot too under bluffed and I do have some straights and sets that can play this way. If I thought he was bluffing enough I would definitely call with my hand.
sure, but if you're representing a straight on turn, river doesn't change much, although, checking with made straight there on river would also probably be good, vs someone that sees check=weak on scary board.
Ermm. What happens to utg after the flop? U started with describing utg as a very very very tight player. But he disappeared from your story after the flop?
What's a "very very tight" player's opening range UTG? 99+, AQ+? AQ is a slam dunk fold against that range, especially with the whole field behind you.
For me it solely depends on how likely players behind us will 3bet. In passive lineups with action players behind me I'm pretty happy to call the 35 and try to flop well. Fwiw I think it's right on the line id definitely fold AJo in this dynamic. Very tight player probably opening AQo+ ATs+ mid PP+ and maybe some other suited Broadway's. The rest of the shit he will just open limp if he wants to play. Regardless I know I can get away from some dicey spots with this hand post flop so I doubt it's burning money either way.
Biggest error in any of these hands is your decision to check back the flop with middle set. Unblocking top pair we should be pure betting the flop 77 55 75s this is slam dunk spot to get max value from top pair (most live players are defending every combo of Ax including A2o in these positions). If you want to check back a strong hand on this flop make it AA.
This is a 4bet pot so I think our flop sizing is way too large. My range preflop in this spot is incredibly narrow, mostly QQ+ AK with partial AQs AJs A5s JJ and TT. We don't need to go large on this board to get folds and we don't want to pot commit ourselves with stuff like QQ and JJ that just benefit from betting mostly for equity denial. Once you use this sizing as played I think we're basically committed with AK and AA but this is a nightmare spot because I rarely ever see players bluff raising in position in a 4bet pot (esp on this type of board I just don't see it happening basically ever). If we use a smaller cbet size we can control the size of the pot and still avoid getting stacked when we face aggression. I would bet 20% on the flop with my entire range and go from there. These deep stack 4bet pots are tricky for sure. Definitely agree that your preflop size is too small at this depth I like going around 850-900 and just expect to get called quite often still.
We're probably not betting the flop with KK and TT for this size so AA and AK are the strongest hands in our range, and I'm really not a fan of playing so unbalanced that I'm bet/folding my entire range as that's just asking to be exploited.
Sorry for late response I must've missed this. I did not get reveal after folding. I did ask what he had and he told me he didn't have a full house. That's the only information I got. I don't think it's very likely this player was bluffing so my honest guess was that he had a wheel straight.
Phil Ivey was definitely one of the top pros in the early to mid 2000s. He's known for being a "feel" player, relying heavily on his instincts versus being as technically sound as the top pros in the game today. There are some absolutely sick clips of Phil making unheard of hero calls and being correct. I don't think he's the goat by any means especially because he's a known degenerate gambler who has frequently been seen playing big money games in the pit. That being said much respect for Phil and what he's done for the game.
I would have played the hand differently but x/c the river seems good with the dynamic. Bounties tend to make people play weird. Maybe he got sticky on the turn to try and win the bounty and you can induce a bluff. Of course he could have the flush as well, which you got to pay in this spot. Shoving the river will be hard to get called but much worse.
Very clear spot where we should start off with a check and likely just call vs a bet. We won't be betting this flop very often so we need to choose some strong stuff to check call. We have one out vs 55 and only board pair outs vs flushes. As played when opponent shoves this turn he's repping a very strong range where 22 should basically never be ahead of any value. I would fold because I don't see players bluff this texture enough to justify calling psb for our entire stack with potentially only board pair outs that are live.
For 2/3 (that's what it usually is here) I recommend the bike because it's one of the few $3 blind games in LA that allows 100bb max buy-in ($300). Other rooms in th area keep the buyin caps very short so it becomes extremely difficult to overcome the rake. For 2/5 I think the only room that offers this stake is hustler and they also have 100bb cap for this game. If you wanna play 5/5 deepstack games you have a few options, hustler and the bike have 1k cap. Commerce 5/5 is very reg infested but on weekends and nights you can definitely find some good games but it's only $500 cap for that game. Gardens also has a 5/5 $600 cap which plays fairly big because they allow straddles. Games are really solid at any of these places so just decide based on where you are located.
Preflop sizing way too small.. start with 4x 3b OOP then size up from there. If I notice the guy in the BB grabbing calling chips I'll go even larger to discourage them from cold calling or force them to put more money in the pot. In this exact scenario I would've gone $100. As for the rest of the hand I think it's pretty standard.
I think betting the flop is definitely fine with this combo, but also I need some strong hands in check back range, esp bc I don't want to get blown off my equity. Its a disaster to bet and face a check raise. I would rather bet my value combos that unblock spades as these will be the ones that need the most protection. I think I would play AKss and AAsx the exact same way as a check back. That's just how I split my range in these scenarios, there's probably no perfect strat in these multiway pots as they will depend heavily on which opponents are involved in the hand.
Snap fold. I think in gto land where tells aren’t a thing, this is probably a call. But him showing a card when he knows your about to fold is sucha huge tell that he wants you to call.
its beyond horrible and theres nothing to study. min popping a tilty guy back is the correct play literally 100% of the time and its not remotely close. its free money and ties a loose live player to the pot "narrowing your range" in this situation makes no fucking difference. learn lil guy.
This might be the stupidest thing I've heard all week. Smashing the 4bet button with AA every time is a disaster because we fold out all his bluffs that are near dead. This is the problem with live players. No creativity. Good luck at the tables you stupid monkey.
Read my edit at the bottom. Regardless I think it's absolutely absurd to not trap AA IP vs 3b by overly aggressive regular at least some portion of the time especially at this stack depth. Why force them to fold somewhere between 5-18% equity when we have the best hand ever created and we have position? Keep 4betting AA IP vs these guys and see how much money you make.
Betonline sucks the timebanks are literally 10 seconds and you run out instantly. Eventually I just gave up on playing there bc I kept timing out so much in cash games.
Against 3,5bb UTG open you shouldn't have any calls in the CO, though maybe it's ok if the blinds are mega whales... I would just simplify and 3bet or fold in this position with 98s mixing (and 3betting very rarely as 98s is one of the worst suited connectors)
Mixing all 3 options seems fine preflop in this dynamic with 98s.. raise call or fold just depending on preflop dynamics like the players we have behind us and the strength of opponents opening range. 3.5x open is very standard in this game and for this opponent it is the only opening size he uses.
I think it over for about 30 seconds and decide it's too good of a price plus there is some chance opponent finds a bluff here. Agree with everything others said about blockers etc... anyway we ran into JTcc which is not too surprising, just curious how many players if any would exploit fold here.
Don't think it's correct to say that you need to be a 40bb/100 winner to profit on a button straddle. It's quite obvious that the button is the position where you will make the most money in poker, so winrates can be much much higher than the average from this position.
I find that live players often make up their mind on the turn, esp when facing big bets. I just choose to underbluff these spots and beg them to try to exploit me. Idk if you've noticed but people HATE folding at the live poker table. I pick my river bluff spots carefully and usually like to have some insight into my opponents thought process (meaning basically I know they are capable of making big folds).
Rarely ever a good idea to put your opponent on an exact hand, we put our opponents on a range and try to narrow that range as much as possible. I think the main error in this hand is preflop.. Q8s is just too wide to flat in MP. Otherwise the rest seems pretty standard. If we had a hand like QJdd which would actually be a reasonable flat I much prefer just calling flop bet IP because raising with our hand will fold out a lot of draws we dominate.
What hands does MP shove 140. AK/AQ/A9/A5/KQ/JT/K9/AJ/AT/99/55/k5/q5s/q9. I know AK/AQ should be a 3bet pre but with fishy tag you never know and 99 and 55 should not be in his range either, but with fish you never know. That brings us to SB who calls quickly. You left out some info here on how deep you are with SB. If he has 500 more playable you would think he would pause to think about raising JT/99 and if he can get more from you. His quick call screams 2 pair to me and you block the 2 pair combos he would have that you beat but not the A9/A5 combos that beat you. It is very hard to imagine you beating both players in this spot but you are getting incredible odds to call. I think it is probably a call because the fishy player range could be anything and SB might be calling wider as a result.
I think we were about 2-2.5k effective with the SB but this is the type of player that will only raise the river or really any point in the hand with the absolute nuts so definitely can't rule out 99 A9 AQ or even AK. However I do think he probably calls off any Ax vs this 140 shove, just not as quickly as he did. Based on pot odds I think we just call and hope to win some small percentage of the time.
I decided to randomize 50/50 which is what I usually do when I just can't make a decision. I landed on a call and rolled over my hand. The recreational player said I had him beat and the sb shows A9dd for aces up. Lose the max lol. The recreational player said he thought he had Kx and just thought he had the best hand 🤦
Another common one is when two players get to showdown and one player shows his cards then the other player says, "you play that shit?" Then tables the exact same hand.
When I first sit down at the table and raise the first hand I'm dealt in, I can guarantee some shitreg is going to say, "is he allowed to do that on the first hand?"
Results?
I folded the river.. just think this spot too under bluffed and I do have some straights and sets that can play this way. If I thought he was bluffing enough I would definitely call with my hand.
sure, but if you're representing a straight on turn, river doesn't change much, although, checking with made straight there on river would also probably be good, vs someone that sees check=weak on scary board.
I fold river but it didn't feel very good. I was prepared to call a big bet but 1.5xp was a lot more than I was expecting.
Ermm. What happens to utg after the flop? U started with describing utg as a very very very tight player. But he disappeared from your story after the flop?
He check folded after there was a bet a call and a raise on the flop. Probably had KK or QQ haha.
What's a "very very tight" player's opening range UTG? 99+, AQ+? AQ is a slam dunk fold against that range, especially with the whole field behind you.
For me it solely depends on how likely players behind us will 3bet. In passive lineups with action players behind me I'm pretty happy to call the 35 and try to flop well. Fwiw I think it's right on the line id definitely fold AJo in this dynamic. Very tight player probably opening AQo+ ATs+ mid PP+ and maybe some other suited Broadway's. The rest of the shit he will just open limp if he wants to play. Regardless I know I can get away from some dicey spots with this hand post flop so I doubt it's burning money either way.
Biggest error in any of these hands is your decision to check back the flop with middle set. Unblocking top pair we should be pure betting the flop 77 55 75s this is slam dunk spot to get max value from top pair (most live players are defending every combo of Ax including A2o in these positions). If you want to check back a strong hand on this flop make it AA.
This is a 4bet pot so I think our flop sizing is way too large. My range preflop in this spot is incredibly narrow, mostly QQ+ AK with partial AQs AJs A5s JJ and TT. We don't need to go large on this board to get folds and we don't want to pot commit ourselves with stuff like QQ and JJ that just benefit from betting mostly for equity denial. Once you use this sizing as played I think we're basically committed with AK and AA but this is a nightmare spot because I rarely ever see players bluff raising in position in a 4bet pot (esp on this type of board I just don't see it happening basically ever). If we use a smaller cbet size we can control the size of the pot and still avoid getting stacked when we face aggression. I would bet 20% on the flop with my entire range and go from there. These deep stack 4bet pots are tricky for sure. Definitely agree that your preflop size is too small at this depth I like going around 850-900 and just expect to get called quite often still.
Why you are committed with AK, AA?
We're probably not betting the flop with KK and TT for this size so AA and AK are the strongest hands in our range, and I'm really not a fan of playing so unbalanced that I'm bet/folding my entire range as that's just asking to be exploited.
Sounds horrible, I would never sit at a table w this
It's pretty amazing creates tons of action imo and stacks get quite deep
I'm assuming you had a plan when you bet river -- what was it, and why did you choose that sizing?
Plan was to bet fold which is what I did.. was pretty surprised to get check raised though
Did you get a reveal
Sorry for late response I must've missed this. I did not get reveal after folding. I did ask what he had and he told me he didn't have a full house. That's the only information I got. I don't think it's very likely this player was bluffing so my honest guess was that he had a wheel straight.
Phil Ivey was definitely one of the top pros in the early to mid 2000s. He's known for being a "feel" player, relying heavily on his instincts versus being as technically sound as the top pros in the game today. There are some absolutely sick clips of Phil making unheard of hero calls and being correct. I don't think he's the goat by any means especially because he's a known degenerate gambler who has frequently been seen playing big money games in the pit. That being said much respect for Phil and what he's done for the game.
I would have played the hand differently but x/c the river seems good with the dynamic. Bounties tend to make people play weird. Maybe he got sticky on the turn to try and win the bounty and you can induce a bluff. Of course he could have the flush as well, which you got to pay in this spot. Shoving the river will be hard to get called but much worse.
This is basically the only analysis on this entire post I fully agree with.
2.2k with the BB was added hours after the post originally was submitted.
30 min after the post was submitted but okay... Hours seems right
Very clear spot where we should start off with a check and likely just call vs a bet. We won't be betting this flop very often so we need to choose some strong stuff to check call. We have one out vs 55 and only board pair outs vs flushes. As played when opponent shoves this turn he's repping a very strong range where 22 should basically never be ahead of any value. I would fold because I don't see players bluff this texture enough to justify calling psb for our entire stack with potentially only board pair outs that are live.
For 2/3 (that's what it usually is here) I recommend the bike because it's one of the few $3 blind games in LA that allows 100bb max buy-in ($300). Other rooms in th area keep the buyin caps very short so it becomes extremely difficult to overcome the rake. For 2/5 I think the only room that offers this stake is hustler and they also have 100bb cap for this game. If you wanna play 5/5 deepstack games you have a few options, hustler and the bike have 1k cap. Commerce 5/5 is very reg infested but on weekends and nights you can definitely find some good games but it's only $500 cap for that game. Gardens also has a 5/5 $600 cap which plays fairly big because they allow straddles. Games are really solid at any of these places so just decide based on where you are located.
Is the rake still $7 for the 2/3 at bike? I don't see how that's beatable long run for anything meaningful.
Yes. Just gotta game select. Definitely beatable if you find the soft games and play very tight aggressive preflop strategy.
Preflop sizing way too small.. start with 4x 3b OOP then size up from there. If I notice the guy in the BB grabbing calling chips I'll go even larger to discourage them from cold calling or force them to put more money in the pot. In this exact scenario I would've gone $100. As for the rest of the hand I think it's pretty standard.
Is this commerce 5/10? Cuz it sounds like it
Indeed
Why would you not bet the flop? The only better queen is AQ. You have top pair, an overcard, a gutshot and a backdoor flush draw.
I think betting the flop is definitely fine with this combo, but also I need some strong hands in check back range, esp bc I don't want to get blown off my equity. Its a disaster to bet and face a check raise. I would rather bet my value combos that unblock spades as these will be the ones that need the most protection. I think I would play AKss and AAsx the exact same way as a check back. That's just how I split my range in these scenarios, there's probably no perfect strat in these multiway pots as they will depend heavily on which opponents are involved in the hand.
Snap fold. I think in gto land where tells aren’t a thing, this is probably a call. But him showing a card when he knows your about to fold is sucha huge tell that he wants you to call.
Exactly my read
its beyond horrible and theres nothing to study. min popping a tilty guy back is the correct play literally 100% of the time and its not remotely close. its free money and ties a loose live player to the pot "narrowing your range" in this situation makes no fucking difference. learn lil guy.
This might be the stupidest thing I've heard all week. Smashing the 4bet button with AA every time is a disaster because we fold out all his bluffs that are near dead. This is the problem with live players. No creativity. Good luck at the tables you stupid monkey.
calling with aces pre v a villain you describe as loose pre spazzy tilty is so dumb i couldn't read any further.
Read my edit at the bottom. Regardless I think it's absolutely absurd to not trap AA IP vs 3b by overly aggressive regular at least some portion of the time especially at this stack depth. Why force them to fold somewhere between 5-18% equity when we have the best hand ever created and we have position? Keep 4betting AA IP vs these guys and see how much money you make.
Trying to work out which player is the drunk maniac here 😂
He did call yes. He had 87o. River 6x we chop 🪓 lmao 🤣
Betonline sucks the timebanks are literally 10 seconds and you run out instantly. Eventually I just gave up on playing there bc I kept timing out so much in cash games.
Against 3,5bb UTG open you shouldn't have any calls in the CO, though maybe it's ok if the blinds are mega whales... I would just simplify and 3bet or fold in this position with 98s mixing (and 3betting very rarely as 98s is one of the worst suited connectors)
Mixing all 3 options seems fine preflop in this dynamic with 98s.. raise call or fold just depending on preflop dynamics like the players we have behind us and the strength of opponents opening range. 3.5x open is very standard in this game and for this opponent it is the only opening size he uses.
so what was the outcome?
I think it over for about 30 seconds and decide it's too good of a price plus there is some chance opponent finds a bluff here. Agree with everything others said about blockers etc... anyway we ran into JTcc which is not too surprising, just curious how many players if any would exploit fold here.
Make that your last spin lol
I really doubt it. It's -200bb/100 just putting the thing out there. That's really tough to overcome unless you're a 40bb/hour crusher
Don't think it's correct to say that you need to be a 40bb/100 winner to profit on a button straddle. It's quite obvious that the button is the position where you will make the most money in poker, so winrates can be much much higher than the average from this position.
I find that live players often make up their mind on the turn, esp when facing big bets. I just choose to underbluff these spots and beg them to try to exploit me. Idk if you've noticed but people HATE folding at the live poker table. I pick my river bluff spots carefully and usually like to have some insight into my opponents thought process (meaning basically I know they are capable of making big folds).
Rarely ever a good idea to put your opponent on an exact hand, we put our opponents on a range and try to narrow that range as much as possible. I think the main error in this hand is preflop.. Q8s is just too wide to flat in MP. Otherwise the rest seems pretty standard. If we had a hand like QJdd which would actually be a reasonable flat I much prefer just calling flop bet IP because raising with our hand will fold out a lot of draws we dominate.
What hands does MP shove 140. AK/AQ/A9/A5/KQ/JT/K9/AJ/AT/99/55/k5/q5s/q9. I know AK/AQ should be a 3bet pre but with fishy tag you never know and 99 and 55 should not be in his range either, but with fish you never know. That brings us to SB who calls quickly. You left out some info here on how deep you are with SB. If he has 500 more playable you would think he would pause to think about raising JT/99 and if he can get more from you. His quick call screams 2 pair to me and you block the 2 pair combos he would have that you beat but not the A9/A5 combos that beat you. It is very hard to imagine you beating both players in this spot but you are getting incredible odds to call. I think it is probably a call because the fishy player range could be anything and SB might be calling wider as a result.
I think we were about 2-2.5k effective with the SB but this is the type of player that will only raise the river or really any point in the hand with the absolute nuts so definitely can't rule out 99 A9 AQ or even AK. However I do think he probably calls off any Ax vs this 140 shove, just not as quickly as he did. Based on pot odds I think we just call and hope to win some small percentage of the time.
What was the outcome of the hand?
I decided to randomize 50/50 which is what I usually do when I just can't make a decision. I landed on a call and rolled over my hand. The recreational player said I had him beat and the sb shows A9dd for aces up. Lose the max lol. The recreational player said he thought he had Kx and just thought he had the best hand 🤦
Fold pre, check turn once you get 4 callers, river id be sizing down a bit exploitatively to get called by all Jx BU has, 400 or so
Obv this is a fold pre based on any chart but in a passive live poker game I don't mind raising considering we rarely ever get 3bet
Another common one is when two players get to showdown and one player shows his cards then the other player says, "you play that shit?" Then tables the exact same hand.
When I first sit down at the table and raise the first hand I'm dealt in, I can guarantee some shitreg is going to say, "is he allowed to do that on the first hand?"