The next big charge is "sub-panel needs to be moved as it's currently above the sink and doesn't meet code for working space in front of the panel which is 3ft" which is estimated at $2k.
Is it possible to relocate the sink rather than electrical panel? When I run into these situations, I generally take a close look at all of the different considerations for what can be moved and how much effort or cost it will be to move it ... Sometimes moving a sink is cheaper than moving a panel if it's simply a matter of amending the plumbing to move the utility sink over a few feet. If the drain is coming up out of the concrete, then that's a problem, sink sort of has to stay where it is unless the scope of work is adjusting to bust up and redo the concrete. If it's a really really tight space it doesn't allow for much to be moved anywhere, then it takes looking at everything closely to figure out what is practical, and the cost is irrelevant.
To my knowledge, they didn't say anything about changing the one unit to a 2 stage. I was told nothing else in our current set up needed to change. They will be flushing our old system because our previous units were r22.
With the upstairs, the focus should be on sizing equipment properly for the eating and cooling load. Insulation and windows plays a role. Usually in most multi-story floor plans, the upstairs stays warmer, the heat may not have to run quite as much in the winter but inversely the air conditioner will run more during the summer relative to the lower level.
When the ducts are in conditioned space, for example there in the walls running from the basement up to the second floor, those are typically uninsulated, although in some instances it can be desirable to have them insulated. In unconditioned spaces, namely the basement, especially if the basement is an unfinished utility space that does not receive heating and air conditioning, that's where insulation where is a standard practice although I will definitely say that there are plenty of old installations from back in the day that are uninsulated and air conditioning was just simply added on to the existing heater. Now if the basement has a couple vents included, let's say two, one at the front and one at the back so that it's heated and air conditioned as well, to keep the humidity level down in the summertime, that alleviates the issue. Cold ductwork will condensate or sweat.
This these old row homes, redoing the mechanicals (plmg/elec/hvac) always presents challenges, unless someone prior has already gone to great lengths to modernized the place.
IDK ... I'm all for good gauges/instruments, but I fail to see the benefit of a fancier electronically controlled vacuum pump, more components to fail. KISS principal on the vacuum pump IMO.
They’re much much quicker and way more effective if you’re vacuuming a very long lineset or especially if you have to pump down the condenser too. Makes installs go by much quicker cause not all of us can wait on that 3cfm pump to finish lmao
Having a basic micron gauge versus one that's electronically connected to give you an alert when it hits the target is a separate issue from whether or not you have a good performing vacuum pump.
Speaking generally, usually there are restrictions in building codes for what appliances or equipment is allowed in a bedroom or closet directly thereof versus what's prohibited.
You may need to disassemble it in the same manner as one would go about rebuilding it... Bottom line, you don't want that moisture to stay in there, and foul up the guts.
Oh, we know. We've been finding out what the concept of the lowest bidder means in homebuilding. We're hoping to make things better however we can until we can move out.
This is great information, thanks! This has definitely been a learning experience, being our first house and all. Speaking of, for future homes are there any red/green flags to look out for?
Everything was residential construction is a crap shoot nowadays, especially when it's an entry level type of property produced by one of the larger regional or national developers, everything has been optimized for cost efficiency down to the last board, foot of wire, pipe fitting, sheet of drywall, nail or screw.
Think long and hard about it, if anything goes sideways either during the job, or in the future, whose phone is going to be ringing, and what are they going to be demanded?
First of all, I'm reasonably certain there has to be a substantial material difference in the scope of work between some of those bids, the price range is way too wide of a band and with five bids they're spread out all over the place.
So to clarify, you have a package unit, and you have a crawl space, is that correct. And the crawl space continues under the area of the floor plan where you wish to have the thermostat located, is that correct?
Thank you for this explanation. I’m tend to think I’m pretty savy but don’t really dabble in electrical or hvac areas. Areas I feel need to be more educated than just dabbling. I’ll weigh the costs between some of the units that have been mentioned with sensors vs hiring someone to come out and actually relocate the current thermostat. Thank you again :)
I think this is a good use case for just having a new wire pulled, on account of it having a crawl space below, easy install. By comparison, if you had a finished basement or a house built on a slab with a flat roof or some other configuration it doesn't have a unfinished utility space above and or below to simplify running a new wire from the equipment to the thermostat, those are use cases for paying a premium for a fancier thermostat solution as a problem solver.
If you are considering purchasing THIS property, I'd strongly urge you to budget something for some electrical improvements to be made right away, as I can almost guarantee that there are deficiencies with this house. Gut instinct is that there's about half the number of circuits that there should be, some of these circuits based on description in the panel are grossly overloaded, and stuff is combined together that shouldn't be (either by code or best practice).
So a few things that I can add on— there is visible wiring that is plastic/vinyl wrapped. Unsure if that’s all wiring in house or if some was added and cloth wrapped wiring remains. I will have an electrician inspect before putting an offer in.
In a case like this, especially given your criteria, it would be critical to take a good sampling of switches and receptacles, and check which generation of wiring is visible at the boxes, and I'd start at the locations furthest from the panel. Also a crawl through the attic is a must.
Thanks for the write up. The AL is what has prompted all this, really. I've rewired all of the bedrooms, closets, hallway and a bit of the common living space in CU, replaced all devices, all junctions and boxes and all the ceiling boxes, added lights, etc. The bathrooms branch from these circuits and remain AL but are scheduled to be renovated 'soon', which is why I left them for now.
Ah, makes sense, and yes, hair dryer, iron, vacuum , etc be rightfully be banned from aluminum.... So getting a copper line in there for the receptacle in the interim is needed, and just leave slack to allow for the future relocation during remodel, and since the adjacent rooms are all new wiring, lights go with whichever general purpose circuit makes sense.
This model of Electronic switch does not have provision for three way switching ... So the very first question should be whether or not having a light be able to be controlled from two locations is necessary or even potentially required by code. Keep in mind that one way to remedy this is to have two smart switches one for the fan and one for the light function.
If you really want to eliminate the second switch, it's possible, there's multiple ways to three we could just give me set up there for I can't tell you just based on the description of words so far what exactly the change will be, but at face value the other switch will be taken out, wires either tied together or kept off, and similar at the near end.
Can you look at the inside of the door of the panel, there should be a piece of paper glued to the inside of the door that has the identification, and specifically a schematic of panel. Take a photo of that, and link it here.
You don't add up the breakers ... there's a complex formula in the code book that is based on a combination of sqft, circuit counts of specific types, and appliance specs.
I appreciate all the information! I guess I'll just deal with walking to the dimmer. A few extra steps a day won't do me any harm lol. Thank you so much for all the help.
The solution to your problem is the product that was listed above, you need a Lutron Maestro dimmer and two matching slave dimmers. The master goes at one of the locations where there's a three-way, the two slaves go where the four-way switch and the other three-way switch is located. When it's all said and done, the master has the green indicator lights on it to show the brightness level, the sleeve switches do not.
Were there electrical prints provided to the electrical contractor / electrician designating how the home was to be wired and what circuits were to be feeding what? If there were prints, you can argue that the home needs to be wired PER prints.
What you are describing is MC cable, which is the norm today, type AC cable ("BX") is still in existence but largely has been replaced by MC in usage, on account of its grounding implementation.
Thanks for the response.
What all accounts for the additional $5,000 worth of electrical work needed right now?
The next big charge is "sub-panel needs to be moved as it's currently above the sink and doesn't meet code for working space in front of the panel which is 3ft" which is estimated at $2k.
Is it possible to relocate the sink rather than electrical panel? When I run into these situations, I generally take a close look at all of the different considerations for what can be moved and how much effort or cost it will be to move it ... Sometimes moving a sink is cheaper than moving a panel if it's simply a matter of amending the plumbing to move the utility sink over a few feet. If the drain is coming up out of the concrete, then that's a problem, sink sort of has to stay where it is unless the scope of work is adjusting to bust up and redo the concrete. If it's a really really tight space it doesn't allow for much to be moved anywhere, then it takes looking at everything closely to figure out what is practical, and the cost is irrelevant.
To my knowledge, they didn't say anything about changing the one unit to a 2 stage. I was told nothing else in our current set up needed to change. They will be flushing our old system because our previous units were r22.
This is the reason you came here for advice right, to find out what you're not being told by sales people.
OK! Get that! Upstairs definitely runs way more than downstairs. Is there any benefit for 2stage upstairs given the demand?
With the upstairs, the focus should be on sizing equipment properly for the eating and cooling load. Insulation and windows plays a role. Usually in most multi-story floor plans, the upstairs stays warmer, the heat may not have to run quite as much in the winter but inversely the air conditioner will run more during the summer relative to the lower level.
It had flexible ducts coming off the arms of the system so they def weren’t original. But I just replaced the flex with solid ducts
When the ducts are in conditioned space, for example there in the walls running from the basement up to the second floor, those are typically uninsulated, although in some instances it can be desirable to have them insulated. In unconditioned spaces, namely the basement, especially if the basement is an unfinished utility space that does not receive heating and air conditioning, that's where insulation where is a standard practice although I will definitely say that there are plenty of old installations from back in the day that are uninsulated and air conditioning was just simply added on to the existing heater. Now if the basement has a couple vents included, let's say two, one at the front and one at the back so that it's heated and air conditioned as well, to keep the humidity level down in the summertime, that alleviates the issue. Cold ductwork will condensate or sweat.
This these old row homes, redoing the mechanicals (plmg/elec/hvac) always presents challenges, unless someone prior has already gone to great lengths to modernized the place.
IDK ... I'm all for good gauges/instruments, but I fail to see the benefit of a fancier electronically controlled vacuum pump, more components to fail. KISS principal on the vacuum pump IMO.
They’re much much quicker and way more effective if you’re vacuuming a very long lineset or especially if you have to pump down the condenser too. Makes installs go by much quicker cause not all of us can wait on that 3cfm pump to finish lmao
Having a basic micron gauge versus one that's electronically connected to give you an alert when it hits the target is a separate issue from whether or not you have a good performing vacuum pump.
Speaking generally, usually there are restrictions in building codes for what appliances or equipment is allowed in a bedroom or closet directly thereof versus what's prohibited.
Yeah I figure as much. I liked the dude too, seemed like a solid guy
Your post is in the wrong subreddit by the way, this should be over in HVAC advice. But I think you have your answer.
You may need to disassemble it in the same manner as one would go about rebuilding it... Bottom line, you don't want that moisture to stay in there, and foul up the guts.
Oh, we know. We've been finding out what the concept of the lowest bidder means in homebuilding. We're hoping to make things better however we can until we can move out.
At least you are being realistic.
This is great information, thanks! This has definitely been a learning experience, being our first house and all. Speaking of, for future homes are there any red/green flags to look out for?
Everything was residential construction is a crap shoot nowadays, especially when it's an entry level type of property produced by one of the larger regional or national developers, everything has been optimized for cost efficiency down to the last board, foot of wire, pipe fitting, sheet of drywall, nail or screw.
Think long and hard about it, if anything goes sideways either during the job, or in the future, whose phone is going to be ringing, and what are they going to be demanded?
First of all, I'm reasonably certain there has to be a substantial material difference in the scope of work between some of those bids, the price range is way too wide of a band and with five bids they're spread out all over the place.
It’s an all in one unit
So to clarify, you have a package unit, and you have a crawl space, is that correct. And the crawl space continues under the area of the floor plan where you wish to have the thermostat located, is that correct?
Thank you for this explanation. I’m tend to think I’m pretty savy but don’t really dabble in electrical or hvac areas. Areas I feel need to be more educated than just dabbling. I’ll weigh the costs between some of the units that have been mentioned with sensors vs hiring someone to come out and actually relocate the current thermostat. Thank you again :)
I think this is a good use case for just having a new wire pulled, on account of it having a crawl space below, easy install. By comparison, if you had a finished basement or a house built on a slab with a flat roof or some other configuration it doesn't have a unfinished utility space above and or below to simplify running a new wire from the equipment to the thermostat, those are use cases for paying a premium for a fancier thermostat solution as a problem solver.
What got you interested in this field of work in the first place? I think it's worth validating what caught your attention to get you on this path.
NAL.
If you are considering purchasing THIS property, I'd strongly urge you to budget something for some electrical improvements to be made right away, as I can almost guarantee that there are deficiencies with this house. Gut instinct is that there's about half the number of circuits that there should be, some of these circuits based on description in the panel are grossly overloaded, and stuff is combined together that shouldn't be (either by code or best practice).
So a few things that I can add on— there is visible wiring that is plastic/vinyl wrapped. Unsure if that’s all wiring in house or if some was added and cloth wrapped wiring remains. I will have an electrician inspect before putting an offer in.
In a case like this, especially given your criteria, it would be critical to take a good sampling of switches and receptacles, and check which generation of wiring is visible at the boxes, and I'd start at the locations furthest from the panel. Also a crawl through the attic is a must.
Thanks for the write up. The AL is what has prompted all this, really. I've rewired all of the bedrooms, closets, hallway and a bit of the common living space in CU, replaced all devices, all junctions and boxes and all the ceiling boxes, added lights, etc. The bathrooms branch from these circuits and remain AL but are scheduled to be renovated 'soon', which is why I left them for now.
Ah, makes sense, and yes, hair dryer, iron, vacuum , etc be rightfully be banned from aluminum.... So getting a copper line in there for the receptacle in the interim is needed, and just leave slack to allow for the future relocation during remodel, and since the adjacent rooms are all new wiring, lights go with whichever general purpose circuit makes sense.
This model of Electronic switch does not have provision for three way switching ... So the very first question should be whether or not having a light be able to be controlled from two locations is necessary or even potentially required by code. Keep in mind that one way to remedy this is to have two smart switches one for the fan and one for the light function.
-. Other switch not necessary at all.
If you really want to eliminate the second switch, it's possible, there's multiple ways to three we could just give me set up there for I can't tell you just based on the description of words so far what exactly the change will be, but at face value the other switch will be taken out, wires either tied together or kept off, and similar at the near end.
This is a Multi-Wire-Branch Circuit, it must be on a 2-pole circuit breaker.
Are two-pole dual-function breakers going to be a thing, in case AFCI is required as well?
Haven't seen any evidence of them to date ... MWBC's are largely out-of-style in residential for this reason.
6/3 w/g and 50A breaker.
Can you look at the inside of the door of the panel, there should be a piece of paper glued to the inside of the door that has the identification, and specifically a schematic of panel. Take a photo of that, and link it here.
The Inside of the panel does not have any paper but it looks like it did at one point lol. There is the tiniest piece of paper remains on the door.
You don't add up the breakers ... there's a complex formula in the code book that is based on a combination of sqft, circuit counts of specific types, and appliance specs.
What type of equipment are you installing?
I appreciate all the information! I guess I'll just deal with walking to the dimmer. A few extra steps a day won't do me any harm lol. Thank you so much for all the help.
The solution to your problem is the product that was listed above, you need a Lutron Maestro dimmer and two matching slave dimmers. The master goes at one of the locations where there's a three-way, the two slaves go where the four-way switch and the other three-way switch is located. When it's all said and done, the master has the green indicator lights on it to show the brightness level, the sleeve switches do not.
That's a fairly long wire run, voltage drop would have to be accounted for so 12 gauge wire is only going to yield a 15 amp circuit.
Were there electrical prints provided to the electrical contractor / electrician designating how the home was to be wired and what circuits were to be feeding what? If there were prints, you can argue that the home needs to be wired PER prints.
This above.
What you are describing is MC cable, which is the norm today, type AC cable ("BX") is still in existence but largely has been replaced by MC in usage, on account of its grounding implementation.
It's actually very common to have an outlet at the panel, and has even become a requirement in recent code cycles.