Oh, man, until you brought it up just now I’d completely forgotten about Steve’s teachings on “sent by God” vs “sent by ‘the enemy’” in the context of people coming to his church. Yes, he regularly made that claim.
“Some people are sent, and other people are SENT.” I’ve heard this from a few network pastors. Steve claimed that there were leaders in the church, including James Chidester, who could distinguish this from a feeling they get the first time they meet people.
Yes, I heard Steve make use this exact phrase about James Chidester as well as Sándor Paull and others. He would cite these abilities when talking about their “track record” of how they were “used by god.” I call baloney on all of it in retrospect.
Just finding out about this after having attended North pines for about a year pre Covid and honestly I’m shocked. Definitely hadn’t heard any negative talk about that church until today (Other than my husband and I being generally confused about why our church friends stopped talking to us very suddenly). It seems to be a relatively widely liked place to attend with us having left being an outlier.
The more you find out, the worse it gets. And for folks who think North Pines is removed from the problems inherent in the rest of The Network, here’s a recording of lead pastor Nick Sellers saying the quiet part out loud:
This is the reason you don’t tell people stuff that you are ashamed of without knowing if that person would be held liable if they were to share that info.
I’m reminded of the story posted on here about Ern and the motorcycle, where Steve Morgan kept Ern’s confession on a slip of paper for years in order to bring it back at an opportune time to produce loyalty.
Anyone from Blue Sky remember Chris Miller "Jesus Paid it All" ONLY during tithes and offerings...? I remember internally laughing at it every single time...and I believe I was laughing it off. Really - how manipulative to sing this while encouraging people to trust the church with their money:
If the scant number of newly minted young group leaders on Network small groups pages is any indication, they aren’t growing with students in a meaningful way. A large percentage of leaders are people I recognize from when I was part of this thing. Vine and its plants especially are many of the same people shuffled around, now a decade older than when I knew them.
I wonder if these slight wording changes are how they justify telling their congregations they are “independent” and not controlled by the Network Leadership Team. It makes me think of how some of the West coast churches are replacing “Network” with “Group.”
These are excellent steps to take for any Network church. Any pastor or staff member who did whatever they could to take actionable, public moves toward these seven steps would be making tremendous strides toward health. It may be too late for most of them to win back many of the friends they’ve betrayed and coerced, but they could sleep at night having done the right thing.
In my mind every single thing these leaders do, every methodology they employ, is a form of blackmail. They obtain embarrassing knowledge about members, they demonstrate to the members how you will be treated if you leave, they make known to all the ramifications of questioning leadership...all these are blackmail, and the leaders use it to the detriment of the mental health of the members, and for the success of their ultimate goal, which is your money.
Yes, I agree with this. This is the dark side of “sharing everything with your leaders.” These are not two-way relationships, this is a power hierarchy, where those on top know the “struggles” (dirt) on the people below them.
Joshua Church or the Network does not own Steve’s house as a “parsonage” as outlined in the linked YouTube video. Steve owns it and pays some property tax on it although he has an agricultural exemption for most of his land because of the cattle he raises. Most people in Texas with over five acres do the same. Property taxes in Texas are very high. Steve and most Network pastors take a housing allowance exemption on their income tax meaning that the amount they pay for housing is deducted from their income before calculating income tax. That’s a nice savings designed to help pastors, most of whom are barely making ends meet. Most Network pastors also file their salaries as self employment income meaning that they don’t pay FICA (social security). That’s good for their bottom line now but puts them in a precarious place come retirement day.
I think it’s good for Steve’s lifestyle to keep being brought to the front, especially when it is different from what he has led people to believe. I don’t think he is getting off tax free like the pastors in the video, but he is in the same vein, especially with his agriculture exemption.
The response from the leaders Josh and Dan when you said you were going to leave to go to a different church is very telling. Having been on staff, I've seen how these conversations happen behind the scenes. They may use language which softens their intent (saying they just want followers to come to them for "advice," "counsel," or "wisdom") but their response shows the truth. Obeying your leader in all things within The Network is EXPECTED, and not doing so will be met with strong resistance, as your story shows.
This was written by my wife for a communications class at Purdue where she had to blog about a personal topic of her choosing, and write about it in a more casual style, as opposed to a journalistic style that comm students are taught. It's so fucking cringe and she wishes she knew how to log in and delete the whole thing lol. It was just easy for her to interview me as the youth intern. Not that I feel the need to defend my wife's thinking from like, damn 13 years ago, but this is just the way you'd expect cult members to evangelize their org.
Child still renting after 7 yrs of marriage with spouse of substantial income. All the while allowing high value recruits to live in the one spare bedrooms of their own apartment for free over course of several years! This asked (expected) of them as young couple by their church over past several years, while pregnant both times. Absurd! My child and grand children living with strangers! No reason for this. But they are tithing that 10% PLUS the tithe of time devoted to activities and meetings. Family of origin has been eliminated from their lives.
We were just talking a few days ago about how we remember being told by Steve from the pulpit how much a particular couple gave to the first building fund at Carbondale. (Reason being that that couple is now enduring a time of hardship and someone has set up a GoFundMe for them.)
Exactly. When you are on it, it feels normal, but we also had that experience when we got into other churches. It would have been jarring to hear about giving the way it was talked about by Steve and others.
"They will say, "It was before they were saved", or "They disclosed their sin to those who needed to know", but these leaders fail to recognize the victims. Who the hell cares if this pastor wasn't a Christian when he raped a 15-year-old boy?"
Predators and “broken, sinful people” are different things. Steve has shown a pattern of predatory behavior and compulsive lying. Such people use organizations like churches by touting “forgiveness” for their “sin” so well-meaning, empathetic people trust them, then enable them to perpetuate all types of abuse.
I know they had Grudem’s “Biblical Foundations for Manhood and Womanhood” on the shelves. It was highly touted, since Grudem is so revered (albeit cherry picked) as the “Network theologian.”
Wow, thanks for your input - it would have never occurred to me that my “rebellions” are not actually rebellions. To be a rebel, I would still have to be a citizen of the Network, and I’m not. Whew!
It never occurred to me that I wasn’t being rebellious, either. This was an insight I learned from someone else, and only very recently. I went the better part of 10 years without it occurring to me I should challenge this. I think this is part of my journey, and I wasn’t meaning to imply you were doing anything wrong with how you were thinking about it.
The most refreshing thing at my new church was switching groups and it not being a big deal/the group leaders and members still treated me as a friend instead of blatantly ignoring me (despite saying they loved me before lol). Because relationships with others outside your group and church is NORMAL.
I hear all of this, and have experienced all of these feelings. It took several years of processing for me for that to reside. It’s ok that it takes as long as it takes. The anger is your body’s defense mechanism, telling you that wasn’t a safe place, and warning you to be careful. Steve Morgan knows our bodies and minds see through their words (albeit subconsciously), which is why they spent so many years telling us to not listen to our emotions and to convince us to reject anger.
Yeah. In The Network I was taught “unforgiveness” was sin. But unsafe people should not be allowed in your life. Period. I don’t even think in terms of “forgiveness/ubforgiveness” any more. There are safe people who make me the best version of myself, and unsafe people who want the worst for me (or want to use me for their own purposes). I’m under no obligation to spend any time thinking about people who want bad things for me. Life is too short.
A push for mediation is commendable. Current members should see this for what it is — their shot at ending so many of the issues respectably with their dignity intact. Current members who force their leaders to consider this then vote with their feet when they don’t would gain my respect.
What would possibly prompt any lead pastor to leave now if Steve's crime against a child wasn't enough? If his abusive system that sparked 5 websites, 1000 members with 26k unique visitors rebuking Network church practices wasn't enough?
My husband and I left Vine almost 2 years ago (PTL), but have yet to relocate out of Vine’s geographic influence. Here are some symptoms both of us have experienced since leaving:
Ooof. I empathize with ALL of this. I ended up getting a job out of state that would take us out of Vine’s geographic area; being in Carbondale area was like living inside a panic attack. It took me a few years, but I’ve rebounded and it’s been amazing. I’ve never regretted a single day! It gets better, and thanks for sharing.
For those of us that know/knew Krsh, it does seem hard to reconcile.
Oh, man, until you brought it up just now I’d completely forgotten about Steve’s teachings on “sent by God” vs “sent by ‘the enemy’” in the context of people coming to his church. Yes, he regularly made that claim.
“Some people are sent, and other people are SENT.” I’ve heard this from a few network pastors. Steve claimed that there were leaders in the church, including James Chidester, who could distinguish this from a feeling they get the first time they meet people.
Yes, I heard Steve make use this exact phrase about James Chidester as well as Sándor Paull and others. He would cite these abilities when talking about their “track record” of how they were “used by god.” I call baloney on all of it in retrospect.
Steve Morgan moved to Texas in 2017 to start Joshua Church.
Just finding out about this after having attended North pines for about a year pre Covid and honestly I’m shocked. Definitely hadn’t heard any negative talk about that church until today (Other than my husband and I being generally confused about why our church friends stopped talking to us very suddenly). It seems to be a relatively widely liked place to attend with us having left being an outlier.
The more you find out, the worse it gets. And for folks who think North Pines is removed from the problems inherent in the rest of The Network, here’s a recording of lead pastor Nick Sellers saying the quiet part out loud:
This is the reason you don’t tell people stuff that you are ashamed of without knowing if that person would be held liable if they were to share that info.
I’m reminded of the story posted on here about Ern and the motorcycle, where Steve Morgan kept Ern’s confession on a slip of paper for years in order to bring it back at an opportune time to produce loyalty.
Anyone from Blue Sky remember Chris Miller "Jesus Paid it All" ONLY during tithes and offerings...? I remember internally laughing at it every single time...and I believe I was laughing it off. Really - how manipulative to sing this while encouraging people to trust the church with their money:
Ooooof. Yes
100% well said.
If the scant number of newly minted young group leaders on Network small groups pages is any indication, they aren’t growing with students in a meaningful way. A large percentage of leaders are people I recognize from when I was part of this thing. Vine and its plants especially are many of the same people shuffled around, now a decade older than when I knew them.
I wonder if these slight wording changes are how they justify telling their congregations they are “independent” and not controlled by the Network Leadership Team. It makes me think of how some of the West coast churches are replacing “Network” with “Group.”
These are excellent steps to take for any Network church. Any pastor or staff member who did whatever they could to take actionable, public moves toward these seven steps would be making tremendous strides toward health. It may be too late for most of them to win back many of the friends they’ve betrayed and coerced, but they could sleep at night having done the right thing.
In my mind every single thing these leaders do, every methodology they employ, is a form of blackmail. They obtain embarrassing knowledge about members, they demonstrate to the members how you will be treated if you leave, they make known to all the ramifications of questioning leadership...all these are blackmail, and the leaders use it to the detriment of the mental health of the members, and for the success of their ultimate goal, which is your money.
Yes, I agree with this. This is the dark side of “sharing everything with your leaders.” These are not two-way relationships, this is a power hierarchy, where those on top know the “struggles” (dirt) on the people below them.
Joshua Church or the Network does not own Steve’s house as a “parsonage” as outlined in the linked YouTube video. Steve owns it and pays some property tax on it although he has an agricultural exemption for most of his land because of the cattle he raises. Most people in Texas with over five acres do the same. Property taxes in Texas are very high. Steve and most Network pastors take a housing allowance exemption on their income tax meaning that the amount they pay for housing is deducted from their income before calculating income tax. That’s a nice savings designed to help pastors, most of whom are barely making ends meet. Most Network pastors also file their salaries as self employment income meaning that they don’t pay FICA (social security). That’s good for their bottom line now but puts them in a precarious place come retirement day.
I think it’s good for Steve’s lifestyle to keep being brought to the front, especially when it is different from what he has led people to believe. I don’t think he is getting off tax free like the pastors in the video, but he is in the same vein, especially with his agriculture exemption.
Link to the article on how Steve scrubbed his JT Longhorns business from the internet. There is documentation there about his agricultural exemption:
The response from the leaders Josh and Dan when you said you were going to leave to go to a different church is very telling. Having been on staff, I've seen how these conversations happen behind the scenes. They may use language which softens their intent (saying they just want followers to come to them for "advice," "counsel," or "wisdom") but their response shows the truth. Obeying your leader in all things within The Network is EXPECTED, and not doing so will be met with strong resistance, as your story shows.
This was written by my wife for a communications class at Purdue where she had to blog about a personal topic of her choosing, and write about it in a more casual style, as opposed to a journalistic style that comm students are taught. It's so fucking cringe and she wishes she knew how to log in and delete the whole thing lol. It was just easy for her to interview me as the youth intern. Not that I feel the need to defend my wife's thinking from like, damn 13 years ago, but this is just the way you'd expect cult members to evangelize their org.
Oh my goodness! The story behind the blog has come to light! Thank you for responding!
Thank you so much. Yes to all those things is what we’re seeing.
What questions can folks here answer for you?
Child still renting after 7 yrs of marriage with spouse of substantial income. All the while allowing high value recruits to live in the one spare bedrooms of their own apartment for free over course of several years! This asked (expected) of them as young couple by their church over past several years, while pregnant both times. Absurd! My child and grand children living with strangers! No reason for this. But they are tithing that 10% PLUS the tithe of time devoted to activities and meetings. Family of origin has been eliminated from their lives.
Ooof. Yes, this kind of mindset and situation is common, especially on church plants.
We were just talking a few days ago about how we remember being told by Steve from the pulpit how much a particular couple gave to the first building fund at Carbondale. (Reason being that that couple is now enduring a time of hardship and someone has set up a GoFundMe for them.)
Exactly. When you are on it, it feels normal, but we also had that experience when we got into other churches. It would have been jarring to hear about giving the way it was talked about by Steve and others.
It’s great organizations like this exist. What amazing resources!
"They will say, "It was before they were saved", or "They disclosed their sin to those who needed to know", but these leaders fail to recognize the victims. Who the hell cares if this pastor wasn't a Christian when he raped a 15-year-old boy?"
Predators and “broken, sinful people” are different things. Steve has shown a pattern of predatory behavior and compulsive lying. Such people use organizations like churches by touting “forgiveness” for their “sin” so well-meaning, empathetic people trust them, then enable them to perpetuate all types of abuse.
I’ve not heard of this before. Is this a podcast?
I don’t remember the exact name of it but at Blue Sky circa 2010-ish there was one like about the fallacy of feminism or something (shocking nobody)
I know they had Grudem’s “Biblical Foundations for Manhood and Womanhood” on the shelves. It was highly touted, since Grudem is so revered (albeit cherry picked) as the “Network theologian.”
What a great topic.
Wow, thanks for your input - it would have never occurred to me that my “rebellions” are not actually rebellions. To be a rebel, I would still have to be a citizen of the Network, and I’m not. Whew!
It never occurred to me that I wasn’t being rebellious, either. This was an insight I learned from someone else, and only very recently. I went the better part of 10 years without it occurring to me I should challenge this. I think this is part of my journey, and I wasn’t meaning to imply you were doing anything wrong with how you were thinking about it.
The most refreshing thing at my new church was switching groups and it not being a big deal/the group leaders and members still treated me as a friend instead of blatantly ignoring me (despite saying they loved me before lol). Because relationships with others outside your group and church is NORMAL.
Were you a planter of SG? When did you join? Wondering what is going on there. Have family there. Thx.
LTN has a summary article on what happened:
I hear all of this, and have experienced all of these feelings. It took several years of processing for me for that to reside. It’s ok that it takes as long as it takes. The anger is your body’s defense mechanism, telling you that wasn’t a safe place, and warning you to be careful. Steve Morgan knows our bodies and minds see through their words (albeit subconsciously), which is why they spent so many years telling us to not listen to our emotions and to convince us to reject anger.
“But I’m thinking it’s now just going to be a part of me forever. Maybe that’s not the sin I once thought it was.”
Yeah. In The Network I was taught “unforgiveness” was sin. But unsafe people should not be allowed in your life. Period. I don’t even think in terms of “forgiveness/ubforgiveness” any more. There are safe people who make me the best version of myself, and unsafe people who want the worst for me (or want to use me for their own purposes). I’m under no obligation to spend any time thinking about people who want bad things for me. Life is too short.
A push for mediation is commendable. Current members should see this for what it is — their shot at ending so many of the issues respectably with their dignity intact. Current members who force their leaders to consider this then vote with their feet when they don’t would gain my respect.
What would possibly prompt any lead pastor to leave now if Steve's crime against a child wasn't enough? If his abusive system that sparked 5 websites, 1000 members with 26k unique visitors rebuking Network church practices wasn't enough?
Thanks for sharing a portion of your journey!
I'm also interested in this. On this topic, it's important to differentiate between "
My husband and I left Vine almost 2 years ago (PTL), but have yet to relocate out of Vine’s geographic influence. Here are some symptoms both of us have experienced since leaving:
Ooof. I empathize with ALL of this. I ended up getting a job out of state that would take us out of Vine’s geographic area; being in Carbondale area was like living inside a panic attack. It took me a few years, but I’ve rebounded and it’s been amazing. I’ve never regretted a single day! It gets better, and thanks for sharing.