It's "game over" if F1 fails first "vital test" of budget cap rules - Ferrari · RaceFans

  1. Even if they announce they believe a team went over they probably immediately get an appeal from that team and enter s legal battle with FIA. Then FIA likely realizes some poorly worded rule creating s loophole. Then they fix the loophole and never talk about it again.

  2. Watch them wait till the end of the season, see how many points they can take off without effecting the outcome and then create a relatively arbitrary explanation for how they actually came up with the perfect large but insignificant number

  3. I’ll just stop watching. I’m a newer fan brought in from DTS a few years back, so I don’t know if it’s basically always been this shady, but after Abu Dhabi last year and now more shenanigans like this. Its either a sport or a curated spectacle like WWE, I became interested in the former, if F1 wants to be the latter I’m out.

  4. Funny thing in this is no one is asking Aston Martin. Who knows it was they who leaked it to put all focus on Red Bull

  5. Because Aston Martin is pretty much a known entity. If they are over the cap we know why, it's due to their expansion in one way or another. They will need to be penalized, but waaaaaaay less is at stake than if a top team broke the cap.

  6. Can't really be helped. You need to firstly finish off the year, then produce the statements and finally have them audited. It's a long process

  7. It’s also relevant now because Red Bull is also being accused of breaking the cap this year as well. Hence why you saw the Toto/Binotto union at Singapore lol

  8. Simple, if the punishment is light then big teams will just spend whatever they like. The punishment has to be severe enough that team will put all the necessary measure to make sure that they dont go past the limit.

  9. Yep. If a rule or law is enforced only by fines then that's just the cost for rich people/teams. Points would have to come off, or you admit there just isn't actually a cost cap and there never will be.

  10. IF these rumours are true, it will be light now because of some dumb reason (but really because the FIA doesn't want to mess with results) and they will clarify it will be severe next time.

  11. The NBA here in the US has a cost cap and has had one for a bit now, it is referred to as a luxury tax in which a team that goes over the allowance is then charged $1.50 for every dollar spent over the allotment to start and this tax scales up incrementally up to $3.75 for the major offenders.

  12. Last years championship is a black eye for the sport and it keeps getting worse. They will do what they need to to keep the championship results and basically make this go away while also looking like they are doing something to punish the guilty.

  13. There is also the implication to the parent company. An auto manufacturer doesn’t want negativity for cheating as reputation is important. A drinks company? Who cares?

  14. It also depends how far past the cap they are. If they exceeded by $5.28 cents I don’t think that matters. But a couple of million and they should be severely punished.

  15. I hate the financial penalty suggestions. The top teams were happy spending way more regardless and does nothing to address the spirit of why the cap was implemented - to even the playing field. Penalties should be related to points.

  16. "Continuous discussions" are the key words in that paragraph. That implies that Ferrari have ran through different scenarios with the FIA to reach the position that they have reached.

  17. Nothing any team principal says rules out anything, as they'll say whatever suits their narrative, be it Binotto, Wolff or Horner.

  18. He is talking about Ferrari specifically though. We dont know if FIA have the same level of engagement with different teams.

  19. I don't think it rules it out per se but quite a few teams have said that they've been constantly in contact with the FIA to clarify things to make sure this doesn't happen. And so it is a little bit interesting that that doesn't apply to all teams.

  20. A bit like Mercedes developing DAS and being in continual discussion with the FIA about it I guess. You want to maximise the grey areas without it being clear-cut against the FIA's interpretation of the rules.

  21. From the beginning it was already clear that it would lead to a lot of discussion as there is probably room for interpretation. Everyone wants to make full use of the budget and no-one is interested in risking penalties from exceeding it. It was already joked about from the start that it would be a World Accounting Championship.

  22. Making big statements about some rumors and without anything official seems like a really bad play for PR if it goes the other way than everybody’s been shouting. They couldn’t have waited with their shouting matches until the numbers were actually out?

  23. I suppose Ferrari are showing they don't trust the FIA to do a fair job of it and not try to weasel their way out of giving a punishment.

  24. I think this is fine as long as all teams know of this before hand. As it stands, it appears (based on speculation) two teams ignored the budget cap for gains, with the only penalty being financial, which doesn't make much sense as only Haas really cares about the budget cap at this point.

  25. considering rumors coming out last night that Red Bull is only barely over cap, expect the noise from Ferrari and Merc to only increase today

  26. It does make a joke of the cost cap if the team winning titles both years broke the rules and the FIA allow that to stand

  27. The daily mail (i know) had an interesting exclusive about it. That the furore on Friday in Singapore was way overblown due to malicious intent in the briefing.

  28. What doesn't help is the integrity of the sport is already shaken. So these allegations true or false cast further doubt on Redbull regardless of innocence or guilt.

  29. Maybe the fines for going over the budget cap should be given to the other teams as "reparations" money that would not count against their caps. As in, if Red Bull is fined 10 million, maybe 4 goes to Williams, 3 goes to Haas, 2 goes to Alpha Tauri, etc.

  30. The problem is that RB would still have the extra development, and this wouldn’t help Merc / Ferrari close the gap

  31. Then teams would just see it as the cost of doing business. 4 mil to Williams won't make them competition. A better way is a luxury tax that is distributed. For every dollar spent over 3 most given into the pool and distributed amount teams not over the cap. RB is ten over they have to pay 30 mil into a pot that is given to other team. This money is exempt from the cap and is gonna be given proportionally from best to worst. So Merc gets let's say 9 million from rb which is exempt from the cap. Punishes the team and rewards those who stay under

  32. Imagine the absolute scenes if it was a point they were discussing with the FIA that Merc and Ferrari just assumed wasn't included and following these discussions it ends up that it is and they end up in further breach than RBR. Never going to happen but I'd pay to see Binotto and Toto try and backpedal from here at this stage

  33. We’re going to get another “not the interpretation we wanted, but this one’s okay but you can’t do it anymore”

  34. Ferrari just crying about the cap and the Singapore GP penalties because they fumbled both championships hard as fuck.

  35. I do wonder how much it would take from the FIA for teams to band together and create a breakaway racing series.

  36. Ferrari threaten that every now & then but it won't happen. F1 is the pennacle and nothing will change that. Another series will just split the audience and cause too much harm.

  37. It nearly happened in the early 2000s with the GPWC, however Bernie and the FIA bribed Ferrari to re-sign the Concorde Agreement and the remainder of the teams fell back into line.

  38. It wouldnt happen. The business side of F1 is the reason why every team is there, and it would take a decade for a new top tier racing series to get comfortable with long term contracts, sponsors and media coverage.

  39. I don’t think it’s likely. But stranger things have happened. If you said a few years ago there would be competing golf tour. If some Saudi Prince starts offering insane money to top drivers, even if the cars are inferior, it will hurt F1. The drivers are more important than the cars.

  40. The punishment should be stripped of all points for the season. Driver and team. It's the only fair way, and the only way to send a message to all teams not to eff around.

  41. I still reckon consider every percent over the cap as a percentage advantage on track, then dock that percentage of points. Draw a direct correlation.

  42. The budget cap will never last. It will be raised incrementally as F1 continues to grow, and the teams will find workarounds. I reckon it will be gone by 2027 after a top team flops in 2026 and throws a hissy fit.

  43. I disagree -- even though the FIA is the one implementing the budget cap, the team owners are the ones who really want it. Team owners want to spend less money on F1, so the cap is a thing they can point to when the team principals/management want to spend more.

  44. They’ll either need to enforce the budget cap or do away with it. If a team went badly over, dock them in points by whatever percentage they’re over the limit, with the number multiplying by the number of successive years the teams go over. This gives team a small buffer, since 1-2% will be essentially meaningless to outcomes most seasons, but if you get to 10% over it’s probably going to cost teams/drives a place or more in rank.

  45. "Corruption" and "bending of the rules to gain an advantage" are like the two primary objectives of Formula One, at least for the people who have money in the mix.

  46. Interesting Ted is now saying the expectations are that there is going to be nothing major announced tomorrow.... Sounds like it was all BS that was made up and thrown around to damage red bull... Let's see tho, won't surprise me if it was all fake drama

  47. I will laugh if the penalty is revealed to be a monetary fine. 1 dollar for each dollar you overspent or something like that. Mercedes and Red Bull will spend extra hundred million dollars next year

  48. It's been said on other posts. But accounting isn't usually cut and dry. Just like race regulations there will be two versions of a set of books that can meet or not meet a cap depending on how rules are interpreted.

  49. Ferrari and Merc setting it up to be "if Red Bull isn't disqualified or points lost, then it's rigged."

  50. It can happen because if RB assumed they can move 40 engineers to other departments where they thought they wouldn’t contribute to the budget cap, but the FIA decides that actually those employees still contribute in a significant enough way to affect car development, then FIA includes those extra costs.

  51. Just like the US election, there are receipts (or ballots) which can be reviewed. If a team materially overspent, then yes, they should be punished, and severely. Having the WCC winner being the one team which materially broke the rules, isn’t a good look for the FIA after just fucking up a WDC as well. But we’ll find out tomorrow if accounts get certified (or not).

  52. I find it crazy that a budget cap would be introduced without clear rules but what happens when it is broken. There shouldn’t be a debate and every team should know exactly what happens when the exceed it.

  53. I still standby my original opinion. The cost cap is difficult to enforce, prone to being circumnavigated, and does not make the competition better.

  54. I'm so fed up with all these teams going on and on about that budget cap.. let them issue the results and the potential punishments before venting these baseless accusations and pre-emptive strikes.

  55. Just F1 politics - just fan the flames for the paddocks flavor of the month and if nothing happens move onto the next month.

  56. Complaining afterwards is less effective than before, and I'm pretty sure it's the reason the FIA delays decisions/releases so that they can gauge/adjust their actions

  57. The team known to have ‘cheated’ in every decade of the sport says this time it’s a bad thing that the word of the rules was followed.

  58. The flexifloor shows there can clearly be smoke without fire. Mercedes were confident it would slow RedBull right down and it only slowed Ferrari.

  59. You really think Binotto and Wolff wouldn't take an opportunity to paint a rival team in a bad light? Horner would do the exact same, as would any other team principal. All their words are completely meaningless.

  60. So Basically you are confirming that Trump was right and Biden stole the US election right? Because it's the same "there is way too much smoke for there to not be a fire".

  61. If they went over the cap and the money spent was used to build parts that enabled Max to win the WDC? There can only be one punishment, fines & docking WCC points aren't going to cut it or else teams would just say fuck the cap..

  62. Crying and screaming over unconfirmed rumors regarding classified information. Which no one besides the FIA has acces to. What a shit show how they handle this.

  63. That time of year again when teams have lost on track and try to change the results via other means. Not my favorite part of F1.

  64. out of everyone, I feel like Ferrari should not be one to make comments, with their hush hush deal with the FIA from a few years ago

  65. Was this your take when verstappen accused Ferrari of cheating with absolutely no official info whatsoever ?

  66. Is it me or does it seem like the teams that ignored the budget cap, are suddenly "in talks" with the FIA to try and "understand" the rules as they were documented, which is an obvious ploy to try and weasel out of a penalty of some kind.

  67. I really hope Red Bull actually went over cap, because if they didn’t Merc and Ferarri have embarrassed theirselves. Kinda feels like the floor thing Toto and George were rambling about

  68. I'd wager it will be exactly like the floor: RBR found a (sneaky) legal way to spend what they did, the FIA will close that loophole going forward.

  69. What? You mean not every team can shift resources to f1 customer teams, sports car series and their road car teams while still gaining valuable research and staying under the cost cap? Jesus other teams that aren’t Ferrari, get your acts together!

  70. I do wonder on the team that had Paul Harris QC in Abu Dhabi , that must have cost real money, and shows said team was spending it

  71. One can only assume this will fall apart. FIA will not punish with any degree of teeth. There will be no incentive for teams to comply. Nobody wants results overturned and the glory is already received. Punishment for this year or next will be worth it. If it’s red bull they will threaten to quit etc.

  72. Punishment for any team should be a points deduction based on how much they exceeded the cap, prorated against their points.

  73. With the way points are awarded and how top heavy they are, I'm not sure that's true at all. Red Bull could have overspent by 20% and even if that didn't improve their performance much, they'd still have a 22 point cushion over Ferrari after the penalty.

  74. The reason MB and Ferrari are so he’ll bent in playing this angle is probably because they’re mad for not thinking about the loophole themselves.

  75. The only way Ferrari can win a Constructors title in modern F1 is if their nearest rivals are disqualified. Seen that one before.

  76. AM developed a pretty slick rear wing. We don’t know anything yet, but IF they did go over by $12M, then I start to question the development of that wing. I’d imagine midfield teams like Alpine would have similar questions.

  77. Like they never bend the rules in the past.............budget is budget, it should be ez to make a system where teams only can take money from 1 account and evidence of every buy/salary. You break te rules, you're out.

  78. Simple penalization process should be -1 pt per $100k from each WDC and WCC for the year the infringement occurred. If you hit $5m, disqualified from all.

  79. I expect they'll just make an announcement that they've decided to delay the announcement till the end of the season and hope people will just forget about it all, which most probably will.

  80. Wouldn’t the top 3 want that? After all, they’re probably the only three who went over the 140 million before the cap. Surely having F1 to themselves and turning it back into their own personal arms race is exactly to their benefit?

  81. The penalty really needs to have a negative feedback loop of some sort to prevent repeat offenders. Something like if you go over budget then you pay a fine in the amount you went over and it comes out of your budget the following season.

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