Ferrari: Minor F1 cost cap breach worth 0.5s per lap

  1. I am really looking forward to Wednesday and hope it brings an end to this speculations. And can focus on what F1 is all about. Speculating on some new rumored scandal.

  2. Just like how the clarification on flexi planks was going to bring Red Bull back down 🤦‍♂️

  3. And from Ferrari rather than mercedes aswell. The issue for the FIA is after Abu Dhabi trust from the fanbase is at an all time low and Merc & Ferrari have just used that brilliantly so that if Wednesday shows they have breached the fanbase will go absolutely insane whatever punishment the FIA put int

  4. Didn’t Ferrari mention earlier in this season they thought RB was over the cost cap? If true then everyone knew something about this?

  5. The problem is that the “cheating” compounds. It’s not just 1 part extra but having better performance from the start means it’s an advantage for multiple years.

  6. Well based on Binotto's calculation they should have been 20 seconds a lap faster than Haas in 2019, just to see how ridicolous his claims are.

  7. I'm already prepared for everyone shitting on the FIA no matter what the actual result is and no matter the penalty if there is one.

  8. Half the people will say the penalty is too harsh, the other half will say it's not harsh enough. I've seen people say RB should be disqualified for 21, 22, and 23. I mean, seriously?

  9. Red Bull will be over the cap slightly, get punished by a fine and wind tunnel time punishment, appeal the decision by stating they interpreted the rules differently, the court will uphold RBR's appeal and the FIA will be forced to rewrite parts of the regulations to close the loopholes.

  10. I am just hoping, mostly for the memes that redbull are like 10 euros over the budget because a couple of team members claimed a mcdonalds.

  11. Obviously I don’t know for sure, but I have to imagine every smart team principle hires a lawyer, barrister or equivalent, whose only job is to scrutinize every word and punctuation of the FIA/F1 rules and regulations to find loop holes they can use.

  12. It’s going to be much ado about nothing. RB have two teams to spread the development costs around… Despite all the claims that both teams operate independently.

  13. Honestly, Horner wanted to increas the budget months ago because they had no money due to inflation. They got updates every race and then suddenly we can read they built a new chassis ? Its all a bit weird, but what do I know.

  14. It's obviously redbull. Merc and Ferrari wouldn't care if it was Aston as they don't compete with them even if Aston broke the cost cap.

  15. But did not name Redbull, close to the line though, they could argue that the average person would know they were referring to Red Bull in that statement and ask the court to act as if they did name Redbull.

  16. They were developing a new lightweight chassis, but since the first budget cap talks started this summer nobody at RedBull ever mentioned the chassis again

  17. Even if it's worth 2s per lap and all of it was true, the FIA won't do anything because it makes them look bad

  18. Wouldn't you argue in this case it makes FIA look even worse to not do anything? Especially as it means merc and ferrari will make sure they go budget over by the exact same amount as soon as they can, knowing minimal punishment

  19. Yeah if there is one thing iv learnt over the last year is FIA will do what they want without worrying about the integrity of the sport.

  20. What? Enforcing the cost cap makes the FIA look good. It would make them look awful if they let RBR off with a slap on the wrist. Like the weakest organisation in the world.

  21. Amount of staff they can maintain/hire, amount of test runs they can do, amount of parts/upgrades they can bring to the track. Some off the top of my head

  22. Being fined for a breach of the budget cap doesn't really do anything. Since the money for that fine doesn't come from within a team's budget cap it won't affect them. Let's say for arguments sake that a team goes $5mil over the budget cap and it gained them 0.5 of a second. If they're penalized in terms of money, it won't take away the illegal advantage they gained by breaching the Cap. So what will stop the other teams from doing it because we all know money isn't a problem if they were penalized in such way. Well for the bigger teams anyway. So the fine will have to be more than money unless it has to be paid from within a team's budget Cap.

  23. In Austria, there is a budget cap for political campaigning. 2017, the winner spent nearly 50% more than what was „allowed“. Because they won, they eventually got the biggest part of public funding of all parties. When they were fined, they just said: „We will be happy to pay the fine.“ If people do not understand the higher morales behind rules, ruled systems won‘t work well. The reason why I am not speeding with my car isn’t because it is forbidden, but because I don‘t want to hurt anyone.

  24. Basically like this years women cycling World Cup! Rule: socks can't go past half the skin. (for aero gains. Weird rule, but it's a rule) Van Vleuten wears socks almost touching her knee, wins the World Championship and gets a fine.

  25. There's a multitude of options. A fine can be accompanied by a reduction of the cap or simulation time for example.

  26. Can see a lot of less casual viewers switching off of racing/ switching to WEC and Indycar if the team(s) in breach of budget are given a fine. I don’t have any faith in the fia after how they manipulated S licence points favouring their own junior series, Ferrari engine debacle, Abu Dhabi aftermath, and general inconsistency with penalties for the past couple seasons.

  27. Yeah totally agree, a fine would be a total cop out. The penalty needs to be retroactive + less wind tunnel time / less budget / maybe a ballast to slow down development of the cheating team. In a sport where every hundredth of a second counts, a seemingly small breach is a big breakthrough on the race side

  28. These just sounds like random numbers to me like those "if we make that development we'll gain that amount of seconds per lap" that Ferrari has made multiple times throughout the season, without any of it coming it true even once.

  29. It could be pretty easily estimated. Let's say your car is 5kg overweight... You can estimate how much to drop 5kg and convert that 5kg loss into lap time. Not hard to estimate.

  30. Like they never changed the result of a race before. I mean, Vettel crossed the line first, and Max was in the top 3 twice.

  31. Exactly. Max is the biggest name in the sport besides Lewis. Red Bull the only real competition in recent years. Both Red Bull and Max are WAY too important to the sport for them to do anything drastic like DSQ team or driver. Anyone thinking otherwise is completely naive.

  32. Funny to see how suddenl Mercedes and Ferrari joined up to find a way to set Red Bull in a negative light.

  33. What a convenient figure they came up with, surely this is 100% backed by full data that they can prove easily.

  34. Wednesday's report can't come fast enough. People love going off on TPs making comments to their benefit and taking it as gospel.

  35. This is what has been driving me fucking crazy. A cost cap is going to be incredibly fucking hard to assess. And everyone is talking about "finding loopholes". Sometimes things are not really clear and you just have to do your best. Regulations are not perfect and do not cover all the craziness that is doing business on a multinational scale.

  36. It's hilarious to me how Ferrari and Mercedes are screaming death and doom, while media is increasing the estimated budget overshoot every time I read another headline. What are we up to now? 20 mill?

  37. There's been more reporting from other sources that the overspend was less than 1 million and it was because RB thought money paid to employees on sick leave wasn't included in the cost cap. But let's wait and see until Wednesday.

  38. To me it makes alot of sense to not include sick leave. Would make for some potential pressure to be scummy, especially in countries with weak labor laws.

  39. If they “thought” that way, I can almost guarantee they have a lawyer or lawyers that will point to the part of rules that allowed them that particular interpretation. FIA will end up with eggs on its own face.

  40. But this makes the assumption that all teams operate in the same way not accounting for any operating efficiencies. Is 3% improvement in efficiency a lot?

  41. in an industry where a thousand of a second matters, 3% can be staggering especially if utilised in a crucial department.

  42. Gap between teammates in qualifying are often between 0.1-0.9%. The 3% improvement is quite substantial in a sport where every thousand of a second matters.

  43. this just isn't true. if that was true mercedes and ferrari would have been designing space ships and red bull would be 10 seconds up the field from the rest every single year. force india/racing point had a very small budget consistently and out developed half the field with a bigger budget gap than just 5m.

  44. I just can't imagine the FIA acknowledging any significant cost cap breach from RB officially, even if it is entirely true and they did overspend by a lot. Any midfield team I could picture it, but not a top team and especially not the one leading the championship with one of the most popular (if controversial) driver on the grid.

  45. This gives you an idea how bad Ferrari was really doing between 2020-21 then, as they should've been 30 seconds a lap faster than Racing Point/Aston Martin.

  46. If a team cheated for both 2021 and 2022 then they better come down hard. This puts the entire sport into disrepute

  47. Most people here dont care about Formula 1 as a sport. Just look, there are already apologists preparing their “yeah but..” with the supposed leaks. The tribalism in the sport has become insane lately when cheating is looked upon favourly as long as it makes their favourite team or driver win, and they dont care if the whole sport goes to the shitters.

  48. However, as always in F1, interpretation of the rules is what the teams are good at. Things like the double diffuser, DAS, the fan car, the X-wings and the six wheeled care all came to be through interpretation of the rules in a certain way, so I assume teams will do the same to the financial regulations.

  49. Its not that black and white. This is no different from finding loopholes for building the cars. RB most likely found a loophole, did overspend, but claims its within the rules. They arent gonna throw title hopes away just to hope to be within the cap, their interpretation is most likely solid and the FIA is just taking their time to understand it to change the rules and prevent it from happening again. Merc and Ferrari are just preparing the ground for that.

  50. Well it was the same when you voted the cost cap in. Apperently it wasnt a problem back then? Seems like a massive oversight if you agree to call 0.5 sec a lap minor breach.

  51. Yeah i was thinking the same. If 3% over the cap would mean so much lap time... Why did they then vote for <5% being small.

  52. I wouldn't be taking Ferraris advice on how much half a second costs. They spent significantly more then anyone for decades and couldn't get within half a second of the winning teams.

  53. What an absolute bullcrap. Isn't Aston Martin one of the teams that is suspect? And on top of that ferrari sacrificed most of last year to spend their time and money on this year. If a couple of million would net an easy half second ferrari should be miles ahead of the field with that investment from last year.

  54. They arent arguing extra cash would get AM higher in the championship though are they? They think they would benefit from it. Kind of a dumb point to make. Think Toyota.

  55. If the gains from being able to spend a few million more are "huge", then surely the losses from being able to spend a few million less are even worse.

  56. They must mean .5 seconds a lap slower because they're massively faster at the cost cap level than they ever were at 500 million.

  57. Ferrari has terrible strategy and communication within the team but one thing they've always done well whether F1 or Le Mans or even the road is make really fast cars. Even in Bahrain they came in with the fastest car by a big margin.

  58. Any cost cap breaches has to be a fine on top of other punishment. 0.5s per lap is a huge amount of time, especially in F1. Could be the difference from pole to 5th off this weekend.

  59. 0.5 seconds is also a bold faced lie, unless you think the Ferrari was 40s a lap faster than the Renault in 2019

  60. 0.5 seconds is often qualifying 6-10 vs Pole. Its championship winning and it also carries forward into future years

  61. I'm all for -25 WDC to both drivers and a subsequent -50 to WCC. And that's my safe penalty. I'd like to see it even more aggressive. I'm talking completely remove driver from potentially winning a WDC with a penalty. -100 or more.

  62. They are not going to mess with WDC results, because the FIA have not wanted to penalize drivers for something the team did. Now WCC are a completely different animal. If the breach is obvious, then I could see being excluded from the year that the cost cap was broken in and the team being forced to return all of the prize money, being excluded from the current year and a large fine.

  63. The real lesson from all this is that we need a gag order - punishable severely - for any comments about other team financial information for a given year until after the FIA completes its review and releases the results.

  64. So the whole week this has been going on it's only been accusations from within teams right? How do they know what each other's budgets are, RB leak? I'm just surprised how much traction a rumor is getting, people love to speculate I guess

  65. At least 15kmh difference in topspeed on the Kemmell Straight in Spa. Making overtaking almost impossible even with DRS.

  66. Well Ferrari..5 million gets you one hell of a strategic whizkid which is worth seconds in races. Or a new rear right wheel pitmechanic saves 2 seconds.

  67. Not sure how Binotto's math works. But 4 mil divided by 70 is roughly 60,000 a person. Does Ferrari always pay their engineers in peanuts? Or is his debate and argument rhetoric being provided by their strategy team as well?

  68. If it's true I think instead of a simple fine the money should be removed from the next year budget. It's difficult to quantify the advantage gain from the extra money, but it's easier to quantify the disadvantage of a reduced budget. With a 24 GP season that could really cause some damage for the development during season

  69. Binotto is on point here. The “minor” breach is actually not minor. Being over 2 or 3, 4 or 5 millions is not really a small amount when other teams are spending that much less than the team that goes over by the same amount.

  70. Yes. They got upgrades every race and suddenly flew by Ferrari with 20+ kmph difference altough we knew Ferrari had the strongest engine powerwise. Then they wanted more budget for inflation and a month after that we can read they built a completely new chassis ? Like wtf ? Where does that money come from ?

  71. According to a Dutch pitreporter Red Bull will get a 7.5 million dollar fine and reduced time in the wind tunnel to prepare for next season. Dont know if this is true, but he said his source was very reliable.

  72. Reduced wind tunnel time in a year after could benefit and win 2 championships off the back of it. Any team would take that trade.

  73. If all these rumours are true, we have no way to know what is going on, since not even RB themselves will know the outcome.

  74. How about 10 points per million? If they’re 4 mill over, dock them 40 points in the WDC split evenly between both drivers and WCC last season and this season.

  75. You don't understand how FIA work XD See Perez penalty. Ah ok, so 4m over. Max won by 8 points. So, we can do 8/4, 2 points per million and he wins on win countback - no change to result but there was a punishment. Job Done, FIA team go enjoy 25k dinner

  76. Should be at least 100 or a massive number. Else teams might try to play tactical foul with trying to obtain a dispensable amount of championship points.

  77. This isn't just checking some numbers on paper, this is the FIA seeing ALL of the finances of a team. Every single penny. That's very very sensitive stuff

  78. Whoever is over has to pay in both development hours and cap space going forward and it needs to be a multiple of the overspend. A fine is pointless. Every team will factor in the cost of the fine as part of the budget and overspend.

  79. I think we should just wait, there is no point speculating, I doubt anything major will happen, for all we know it could just be an accounting error.

  80. I love how there’s a rule in place, but there’s no punishment guideline for breaking such rules. This is how much of a joke the FIA is. People are on here commenting if there’s a breach, how would they be punished? Fine? Fine plus what? Like, holy fuck. The FIA needs to just be a thing of the past and another series picks this shit up.

  81. If there’s any breach, Fia really need to go heavy handed. Points deductions for prior year, reduced budget for following year, less wind tunnel time and forcing a 5kg ballast the following year so that complying teams can catch up. There’s a big ripple effect for going over the budget

  82. Whoever breaches the cost cap by even 1$ should be terminated from both the WDC and WCC. Put in the harshest penalty possible, otherwise the rich teams will simply tank a fine or minor punishment and run away with a net positive advantage that fuels into future seasons aswell.

  83. I don't understand how they didn't stipulate the punishment in the rules, the thought that they are gonna come up with it after the fact is stupid, if they set it too low F1 teams might just say fuck it and blow the budget by that amount once the president is set

  84. Because if you know the rules you can act towards them. Not to mention that I think most of us will agree that if you go €1 over budget it's should be punished a lot less severe than if you go 25 million euro over budget.

  85. In the event that a team goes over, make them repay the amount they went over to every other team. You go over by 4 mil? You pay 4 mil x 9. That 4 mil does not count towards the other teams budget caps, it's extra money they get above what you get the next year.

  86. If these shenanigans keep happening, I'll have to return to pirating low quality streams instead of giving my money to this sport.

  87. Hard enforce the cost cap or get rid of it. We’ve seen in other sports like financial fair play when not enforced is just a laughing stock

  88. I feel like Ferrari shouldn't really be talking unless they disclose what happened with their engines in 2019.....

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