If you agree, upvote. If you don’t, downvote.

  1. Exactly. Lauer is a naive fool for thinking that reform is enough. He is part of the problem. That's why i trust Trimbath she knows the system needs to be destroyed. DRS 100%

  2. And just getting rid of payment for order flow doesn't mean they won't still know the order flow.. they'll just pay in other ways if they don't control the data themselves

  3. Blows me away that anyone wants to just ‘settle’ for ‘some corruption’ as being acceptable smells like FUD tbh

  4. Both, but not necessarily in parallel. FTDs first (low hanging fruit) then PFOF. FTDs should be a quick win, easy to rally behind and obvious to anyone. Getting rid of them will help the prices be more accurate. PFOF is bad too, but if we try to tackle all the things that are wrong with the market at once they distract from each other and make it seem too hard or too much too fast. I agree with D. L., let’s focus like a laser on FTDs first. A single win like that would build momentum for fighting the next evil.

  5. This is reddit, we can only focus on one thing at a time and if you focus on the other you aren't focusing on the thing I want.

  6. Because most people are busy with life and dumb to this information. It's important to work with the simplest concept to communicate possibly. What is simpler to understand a FTD or PFOF?

  7. Yeah I think we need major reform on a number of issues at the same time. Ftds are critical, but nothing else should be delayed or overlooked.

  8. I think it’s more beneficial for mass support to focus on one, which is why I would choose FTD’s. It’s easier to understand and support it being wrong for the Average Joe. The more support something gets, the harder it is for regulators to sit on their hands. But, yes, both definitely need the attention

  9. Exactly. Came to say this. It's like legetimizing pick pocketing via PFOF and saying we should focus on banning robbery. Both are wrong as they prey on retail and must be banned.

  10. at this point, looking at fucking Gary the sleazy snail from SpongeBob completely fucking over retail on PFOF ban backpedaling, I lost all hope..

  11. This is something that Dr.T also touched on and I forgot where she said it, believe it was in one of her tweets (sorry don't have time to look for it right now). She said something along the lines of "FTDs are the real problem we should be concerned about". I mean I get both are really bad but I think FTDs are what's hurting retail the most.

  12. FTDs are the loophole through which all the crime related to short selling flows. PFOF is shitty but a peripheral problem to the shorting crimes IMO...although I can see an argument that PFOF has helped them to hide their FTDs and suppress price, etc.

  13. I think it’s better to focus on one thing at-a-time. The best way to achieve change is for something to gain so much public support that it forces regulators, who would rather do nothing, to actually do their job and take action. I don’t think the concept in Payment For Order Flow would be easy to grasp to the wider public, limiting its support

  14. FTD should be illegal 100% but the main problem is just the poor enforcement of everything. They can make it illegal but it doesn’t matter if it’s a chump change punishment when they get caught.

  15. For me it's if you can't deliver, you shouldn't be able to sell more. Actually, you shouldn't be able to sell what you don't have in the first place.

  16. It’s a simple fix. If a fund/entity fails to deliver, charge them 2x the ticker price per share failed at the time the deliver was failed.

  17. I agree! I think PFOF has been a distraction throughout this whole ordeal these past 2 years. The real issue is FTD's being permitted in mass when failing to deliver on even 1 short should cost you your market access.

  18. Market Makers are "private" businesses equipped with a complete lack of transparency! This alone points directly to the conflict of interest done to "public" investors.

  19. I have always found it so weird that Dave has focused so much on pfof when there are much more egregious issues at hand. Ftd’s, naked short selling, marking trades long when they’re in fact short sales, front running trades, alto trading, swaps, or even cellar boxing. Pfof is one of the smallest concerns if he truly wants to go about changing the market for the better.

  20. It is just a distraction and keeps people from fighting the much more egregious problems. I wonder if Dave is really on our side or if he’s just a psyop to make it feel like we’re doing “something”.

  21. It baffles me that these guys can FTD time and time again and the company can get loans, have other companies “invest” in them, get bailouts, or have their fiscal closes show positives.

  22. One of the few things that gets to me about DL is his claim that he won’t take a definitive public position on DRS because he doesn’t want to “influence his followers” with their investment decisions. At the same time, he rails against PFOF which influences his followers to not use PFOF brokers. Am I wrong here?

  23. I agree, who gives a FUCK about PFOF if I am using limit orders. Who the fuck even use market orders which this much fuckery. I buy and sell at the price I set. If it goes up more after I sell, no regrets. Just move on.

  24. Dave’s startin to scare me….demanding we “mobilize”. I don’t mobilize. And there ain’t no “we”. I just like the stock.

  25. I still don't get how anyone gets away with FTD. If I FTD I don't eat. Why are the HF allowed to FTD and then nothing happens?

  26. Both need to go but if it was one or the other I lean towards banning ftds. Ftds are basically theft if not entirely at least in the short term and gives large funds the ability to manipulate the price of a security with resources that don't exist. If you want to short a stock then you borrow a share that exists and is verified and it's transferred to you to sell, period, end of story.

  27. dave is always trying to play us up but there hasnt been a time he HASNT let us down. only mentions pfof when talking to important people, the netflix doc or whatever that was, making some thing hes trying to sell, just again and again, and i dont even remember what he is or did that made us interested in him in the first place

  28. its almost as if dave lauer has been distracting the sub from its goals with full understanding it would eventually lead no where because hes been in contact with gensler since the beginning.

  29. I've only been fucking saying this shit for months now. It is just infuriating that only now people start being aware? Fuck man

  30. PFOF was in the limelight after the sneeze a little more so that FTDs. The system is so corrupt I expect Dave didn’t think it would be possible to tackle both at the same time

  31. FTDs are definitely easier to understand for normal people, I'd be inclined to agree with you if anyone here was normal people but everyone that has skin in the game here is militantly retarded. PFOF isn't as easy to understand if you're a fucking moron and can't read I guess but what the fuck is so hard about "mother fucker that executes market orders pays stock man for orders"?

  32. It needs to be completely dismantled and rebuilt. The people making the rules are the same ones stealing our money, think they give a shit about you? The only way this ends is MOASS. They stop MOASS? Any remaining faith in the US market goes out the window and individuals across the board pull their money out, leaving the big wigs to manipulate themselves.

  33. Why not both. My focus is on each and every underhanded illegal (what should clearly be illegal but somehow is not) manipulative practice that is being used. And it doesn’t stop at classifying it as illegal, the punishment needs to be so severe that it is a true deterrent. No reform that moves at a snails pace is going to be impactful. America needs immediate and severe changes in our governance of the financial industry and our markets and our elected representatives need to be held accountable for making this change. Right now they are all failing us. Not one true reformist in government.

  34. You’re speaking for yourself buddy just DM your pal Dave about patching a hole on a sinking ship if that’s what you’re into. Our focus is MOASS 🌎👨‍🚀🔫👨‍🚀

  35. I agree! I'm working on something right now for this. This will be We The Investors' second major effort, and it's because of the feedback that I've gotten from here and in other places. I want We The Investors to truly be a grassroots movement, so it must adapt to the demands of the community and grassroots. We'll have another letter put together soon outlining the changes we'd like to see, including more transparency to start, and an end to the "Failure-as-a-business model." Once we put the list together, we'll be open to any other ideas or thoughts on what would make sense, and then once we finalize it we'll start to work our asses off to end this insane practice.

  36. Will this involve you collecting more Ape signatures/identities and using these names/numbers as a way to raise more money in your Kickstarters; saying these Apes support your Terminal business? 😏🤨 Btw, you at least owe every one of those Apes a free membership,if it's legit & they want it.

  37. Explaining PFOF to non-initiated, non-investors usually confuses people in my experience. Once you mention dark pools and OTC — wholesaling retail orders and subverting market buying pressure to control the price — most people tune me out, politely nod, and don’t choose to investigate further. Talking about Fails is more intriguing to the average person. I agree with Dave overall, longterm thinking, but I also think we shouldn’t take our foot off their necks about PFOF and get that shit crushed. 🧱

  38. We the people, the apes, choose to go to the moon. Not because it is easy, not because it is hard, but because we are non-stop gamers.

  39. Dave fights to change stuff that will help make things more fair for his business, which seems like PFOF is the major issue. I don't blame him for focusing on stuff that helps him economically, I'd do the same.

  40. Or maybe your post is playing into their hands. Seems many Apes have been trying to get FTDs & naked shorting higher on the battles priority list for quite some time now. Btw, one battle does not negate the others. Pick your poison; if your knowledge is more in one area than another.

  41. I'm downvoting only because I think that we need FULL FOCUS on both. I agree that FTD's are a bigger issue, however PFOF is also a key factor in their manipulation off-exchange and through internalizing orders. We absolutely need full focus on both.

  42. FTDs are more important, but why not both, along with every element of fuckery that exists (naked shorts, off exchange trading, etc.)?

  43. I think we need to fight for both. We don't want retail to seem like they have a fleeting memory and drive like the retail of the past. This is a new generation that cares and wants accountability. We don't want token gifts to appease us we want serious institutional change.

  44. In a world where people are willing to give up their privacy/data for services (Google, FB, whatever), we need to be able to explain how PFOF (basically giving up your trading data to get commission free trading) is also against their better interests.

  45. Agreed. This is yet another wedge. The dude is aware of the system in a way that very few fully understand. Making Dave into a bad guy is a great way to try to peel off a powerful voice for systemic change.

  46. I half agree. I DO think we should put focus on FTDs, but I DON'T think all the momentum that has been built up to move against PFOF should just die in favor of working on banning FTD. I agree FTD is not good and allows for lying and straight up fraud, but the old adage comes to mind "finish what you start"

  47. Ah cool so another thing waiting for years just so in the end it doesn’t come anyway. I don’t know some other action maybe. We have no power than DRS.

  48. Since when is liking a stock not enough? Stop making this a fucking movement. I aint doin anything except buy, hold and drs.

  49. PFOF is simply front running. If one knows that 1000 people are going to be buying or bidding on XYZ, beat them to the punch by crashing the price of XYZ, buying lower and selling into the strength shown by order flow.

  50. Wait holy shit so the whole market maker exceptions would be null and void if there existed a liquidity pool. Possibly one that any stock owner can lend into for a return.

  51. PFOF doesn’t matter and DLauer needs to stop worrying about it. On blockchain, nobody is stepping in front of anybody in trading. Why does he keep going after PFOF? It’s not like retail traders are making crazy money on it; if my limit buy is for $20 and the hedge bought it at $19.999, whatever, fuck them. I care about the fact that the share is not real and they will FTD my share.

  52. Agree to part of this. I think selling what you don’t have is okay as long as it were 100% transparent and there was no such thing as FTD. Loaners should be held accountable immediately if they don’t deliver on time. Walmart gets their money even if I don’t pay my credit card. Should be the same for us.

  53. Crazy I was thinking about this today. It's great that people fight to stop PFOF and dark pools, but how isn't naked shorting and FTD's on top of the agenda? Sometimes I suspect the powers that be just gives us these carrots to keep us pre occupied from the real issues.

  54. true, trying to explain the concept of PFOF to an average Joe that has hardly an idea of the stock market, and how it's manipulated, begins to sound conspiracist

  55. Dark pools and FTD’s are way more important to focus on rather than PFOF. I’m fine with PFOF as it allows for commission free trading, they DO have to get paid somehow for our trades. I don’t care if they shave a penny off every trade. True price discovery is what I care about along with my shares being delivered. T+0 is totally possible.

  56. FTD's happen in centralized exchanges only, decentralized no problem. Naked shorting represents more than 99% of fails to deliver in our current market and it only takes 10 minutes to fix it. Make it expensive to commit crime. No shorting prior to locating shares, fines doubling the amount of provoked FTD (if intentional) and immediately forced buy-ins.

  57. DRS every single stock you own at this point. If the people DRS ALL their stocks then it will hurt the brokerages more and hedge funds will have problems borrowing stocks. DRS EVERYTHING!!!!!

  58. Agree but nobody in power has interest in change so it won't happen unless people start going to jail.

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