The Slippery Slope of Genshin Endgame content

  1. The part about de-emphasizing power is a good point, in both your reference to FGO and the CN community being burnt out by relentless powercreep. I've seen it as well with online games like MMORPGs and such where the more challenging the content the more restrictive things get in both performance and expectation (granted genshin doesn't have to worry about other players unless you're into co-op). But the Gacha model on top of that is worrisome, I see how much FEH fumbles it's balancing on top of not knowing what to do for actual gameplay, and idk why non-FE fans even bother with the game if not for love for the series itself.

  2. One gacha game I play (Granblue Fantasy) releases 3 to 4 SSR (5 star) units every month, and they have a competitive endgame event every 2 months. Said endgame dictates what units will be meta, and in most cases they're the latest gacha characters. That is pretty much the gacha coercion described by OP in his post.

  3. Bear in mind FGO is one of those games where you can complete most content with any character, yet even then the meta just formed anyway, only around farming.

  4. From your post, I am actually curious about Geographic of people on reddit - yeah how many ppl actually care for Abyss, how many hate it, what device they are playing on, what is their player status (F2P, welkin, etc.)

  5. Yeah, don't trust any statistics or statements that don't have a source to back them up. Most people are just making these number up to validate their view.

  6. This. 100%. I just want something to do that isn't just a few hours of story each month + a 5 minute mini game every event.

  7. These things have been known for 2 years now IN ACTION so I'm really perplexed at BOTH the positive and negative reactions to a third party interview about the game from an unknown dev from the team. Are any of the answers seriously a surprise?

  8. There is a difference between having your family go missing in a plane crash 3 months ago and believing they're probably dead, to literally finding a corpse.

  9. Atleast it makes it clear to those who were hoping that Genshin will become less casual. Hopefully most of them just go to a different game at this point.

  10. I just think people are putting too much weight into this interview. It should be taken with a grain of salt. Imagine if a few months ago they were asked if an anime will be made. They would answer the exact same way. All we know is they aren’t making another spiral abyss.

  11. Which could be as specific as "no new time attack mode" or as vague as no new combat related events or game modes ever. This whole interview was a mistake. They said a bunch of stuff they're not doing while not offering any alternatives, fanning the flames for a lot of people who are already content starved.

  12. mostly genshin content creators are putting more weight on it and they almost feels like they want the game to be competitive asf. also they feel like it's the end of the road for end game content.

  13. 2 years is a hell of a long wait already. This is not some out-of-the-blue interview, this is explicit confirmation of what the game is already massively hinting at throughout its development.

  14. I just want shit to do other then limited events,abyss and domains. It doesn’t need to be extremely difficult or anything just something else that’s fun to do. Hell there could be awesome co-op mini games or something.

  15. I understand the logic here, it's either Hoyo choosing the veterans or casuals, and they chose the casuals. But I also sympathize with the veterans here. Many people (myself included) that have played for almost 2 years don't have harder content to aim towards for quite some time now. I'm just hoping we will have something other than 3 minute time limit rush battle against enemies.

  16. I don't necessarily want content to get harder, I just want more endgame content to take part in period. They've introduced a lot of neat event game modes that could use an abyss level of difficulty. Abyss is just super boring by now and I'd like more variety beyond messing with my comps just so it's not the same thing over and over.

  17. What about optional difficulty in existing systems? Is that not worth considering either? I’d like to have WL9 or WL10 which have level 150 enemies. At least I want to be feel that I’m back to traveling in a dangerous world where my investment in units matters. And they can change nothing about reward drop rates, if Kazuha tells me in a story that the enemy is difficult, then it will at least feel it’s true instead of me one-shotting it.

  18. There are events with an abyss tier or even higher difficulty settings that usually give you nothing for completion. I enjoy doing those but I bet the majority of the players don't even try them because it doesn't give primos.

  19. I think that probably won't cause a lot of issues if there are no extra drops, but it might end up a very niche option very few players will actually use. And there isn't any indication they won't do that (though I don't think it'll be very likely)

  20. You raised a valid point. The game actually allow players to lower the WL for that reason if people feel like it’s too hard.

  21. I mean enemy movesets arent complex enough for me to want to spend 5 minutes of raiden Q spam so idk about the level 500 hunts

  22. Artificial difficulty is a bad thing, unless they make enemies AI "more intelligent" the only thing hapening is enemies becoming damage sponges and we becoming wet paper, basically just makes it a game of math. "Do i have enough damage to kill it before they kill me?"

  23. The biggest issue I have with this is "if you're not going to make difficult content, why are so many systems in the game tied to raising character power?"

  24. I think it's due to how gachas function. The way the traditional gacha works compared with older microtransaction based mobile games like Clash of Clans is that it's heavily centered on selling you characters. Thus you get a lot of people very attached to characters (as humans tend to. That's just how we work as social creatures), which allows them to entice you to pay money and time to improve your character. But on the other hand, MHY doesn't want to appear as greedy or P2W, so they try to cordon off character power, letting all other aspects of the game be generally totally free. Personally i think it's probably a bit more ethical than the alternative, tbh.

  25. Ah, the 1.X era of the abyss. Now THAT was hell. Especially on floors 9 and 10, ironically, the devs made the brilliant decision to add the dragonspine freeze mechanic to the abyss

  26. It's the difference in how you perceive it. One perspective is spending money to "keep up", which is what other gacha have been and still are doing to death. The other one, and I consider genshin to be part of the latter, is spending money purely out of love for the game and support for the company, as stupid as it sounds.

  27. I think a lot of it was bad experiences with heavy powercrept gacha in the past, which has formed a sort of collective mistrust of gacha game devs and overall anxiety of meta in all gacha games. The anxiety of your character being powercrept and being dunked on by the wider community is part of the phenomenon the devs mean by saying giving players excessive anxiety. That's why Mihoyo very clearly tries to distance themselves from any possiblity of powercreep, which partly manifests in the reluctance of adding endgame modes (which are commonly used in other gacha games to facilliate powercrept and coerce you into rolling for the newest op unit).

  28. I'm honestly not surprised at the CN reaction, the eastern and western gaming habits are actually pretty different. Although the stereotype is that eastern gamers are even sweatier than western players, and it might be true for the cream of their crop, the vast majority don't have the luxury of spending that much time on gaming, what with both the student and work life being insane over there (students taking so many cram classes, although maybe recent policies are trying to help that, and workers being incentivized to a 9-9-6 work culture).

  29. please don't conflate very loud people on the internet as the 'whole community' or even majority. only 2.5% of players on ps platform even cleared abyss regardless of stars and that's the biggest sample size we have available. that should tell you all you need to know really.

  30. genshin is the only gacha besides brawl stars i have ever played for longer than a few hours so i don't exactly know how other games work, but i definitely appreciate the fact that while i have spent some money (mostly on characters that i liked the design of, before i actually started caring about damage) i wouldn't need to spend anything to fully appreciate everything in the game, and i do feel like an excessive amount of end game content would hurt this.

  31. Nice to hear feedback from part of the CN community. Your post really summarizes the pb of gacha games; designers feel there's only one way to do them with tryhard mode, powercreep and the like. Except Genshin is proving that's actually wrong. Try hard, competitive players are really a minority in gaming on PCs and consoles and Genshin was really smart to focus on different gameplay.

  32. I have a theory that try hard players are actually the least spending group. A lot of them pride themselves as F2P and vow to never spend a dime.

  33. Those games are not a minority as evidenced by billions they are making still but this (more casual oriented) particular market hadn't been tapped until Genshin came along. Genshin pretty much reign alone though it being of a very high quality helps, a ton, as otherwise people would just skedaddle.

  34. from what i hear jp is one market that does waifu/husband over meta. i hear ayato is one of the top selling banners there bc of his voice actor and also sometimes yknow the waifu IS the meta like with raiden which is a win win for everyone

  35. CN player here. I think CN is much more meta-focused than EN, especially on forums like nga. And that’s exactly why many players don’t want more Abyss-like end game.

  36. it’s wild that a group of people who don’t invest in the games mechanics or even pay for the content (their words) have THIS much to even say.

  37. I can't refute any of the points made here, but it doesn't make me any less sad. So much of the game revolves around getting characters, building them, and then making them strong. When the most difficult content is a pushover for so many players, it makes a lot of the existing content pointless.

  38. Why not for the short term at least offer different difficulty levels to abyss with rewards staying the same? Like if we want the mobs to have more HP, faster attack speed, and hit harder then let us enable those so we can test our characters more. But the rewards stay the same

  39. Sure, i think that's reasonable. Maybe put it in the next survey. It honestly works if enough people put it on there. But I do worry it'll be a ghost option very few people use.

  40. I mean, there is a place were a game can have harder or at the least, more varied end-game combat systems that do not require power-creep, nor do they require primo-anxiety.

  41. These problems can be remedied by a mode that gives mora and artifact xp, something that matter a lot less to casual players than people who care for endgame content. Casual players wouldn't feel as much fomo as if there were primogems for rewards. Besides that, a "harder endgame" doesn't equal powercreep. Firstly, what most endgame players are asking for is repeatable challenging content, not a mindless dps check that they'll be done with in 20min, something like survival or labyrinth warriors but with very hard hitting and high hp enemies that continue scaling infinitely. In this case dps wouldn't simply be the be all and end all, but dps will still help with survival so whales can still get a benefit. Even if the new content is just higher dps check abyss it won't necessarily lead to powercreep either. Since this mode contains materials only people interested in endgame want the pulling rationale won't change for most players and its less likely for endgame players to pull just to be able to unlock more artifact xp so that won't lead to powercreep either. The dps check of abyss in last abyss cycle and this one is also the highest out of any dps check to date. This abyss is offset by enemies being autogrouped but last abyss wasn't. Even though abyss is getting harder, units aren't consistently releasing stronger than past units. Day one units, XL, Sucrose, Xingqiu, Bennett, Fischl are still at the top of the meta. Hu Tao is still the best single target carry despite having been released in 1.3 for example. Thing is, a lot of the characters in the game can easily clear abyss with enough game knowledge and good resin investment, higher dps requirement simply means the standard of artifacts required is higher, I highly doubt the dps check will change from the 20-30k it is in abyss now to something like 70k which only one c0 character can reach atm with standardized artifacts. Even if it does, let it be a whale's playground, you're missing out on some mora and artifact xp at most.

  42. Problem is, mora and artifact exp would stop being useful when they have maxed their artifacts. What can you offer to those that has fully geared their character for this mode of yours? Your basing your endgame on the idea that people are still growing their character when a lot of hardcores want an endgame that push all of their already min-maxed character to the limit.

  43. I don't really think mora and artifact exp is less valuable to an waifu/husbando collector who might want to pimp out their fav, but I concur it's probably less harmful. You still end up with the problem of percieved value of character power going up, which will make unit design more limited in the future though. And there has been a period of powercreep in genshin's history, the time from around ganyu to raiden, and the current situation is more of a course correct. And while you are correct about the powercreep isn't gonna suddenly be c6 whale level, it still puts a lot of pressure on that diluc main that might be a bit casual and was barely clearing 36 stars.

  44. i agree with most of what you said here, but let me offer a slight counterpoint. i am a day 1 player, still play every day, i have spent here and there for welkin, bp, occasional top up. but since about 2.3 i do not spend anymore. lately it feels like hoyo is releasing units who are beautiful, have great personalities, amazing visual effects, excellent voice acting. i want to pull them. but then i see that their kits are absolute dogwater, just so-so, or “4*/5* ____”. but then i see that i don’t need or even want them for the purpose of actually playing the game that i love so much. what is left as an incentive to pull? to put a pretty character on a shelf?

  45. yeah new 4star characters are such downers. they spend so much dressing them up, giving nice voices and designs and they don't play all that well.

  46. That might lead to the Honkai Impact scenario, where almost every new character is as strong, if not stronger than the previous one, and people are “forced” to abandon their older characters and pull for new ones.

  47. They also trash talked Tectone and Mtashed there in the link, while being mostly sympathetic of fobmaster. Something about them being clowns and keep saying they quit and coming back. Their words, not mine. I don't watch either of the three so am not qualified to comment.

  48. im bilingual and im having such a laugh with the link you sent, the cn community is truly savage in their insults. Thank you for posting that link LOL

  49. ok, as someone who can understand and read this, this is probably one of the funniest things I've ever read, we are just getting flamed LOL

  50. The big issue there seems to be people fearing missing out on content and rewards if they add end game content as more content might be too much to keep up with. But what about but giving us end game content that's purely optional and isn't linked to any rewards, just something that can be done again and again while still being fun? That way no one misses out on a permenant aspect of the game that doesn't contain any story and don't miss out on rewards.

  51. Missing a BIG caveat that many people include when they clamor for optional endgame content, especially ones who say it ‘won’t change anything’. The caveat changes it to: ‘Optional endgame content won’t change anything IF THERE IS LITTLE TO NO REWARD’, which is true. It would give the sweaties and whales a chance to flex and the casuals won’t care.

  52. As a mobile-only F2P casual (I used to occasionally buy Welkins, before I had to tighten my budget due to rising inflation) who mainly plays for plot/lore depth, beautiful scenery, and fun colorfully-dressed waifus, I couldn’t give two shits about the meta or “endgame content”. If anything, I want more character skins, more puzzles, and more content for my teapot. My favorite characters are my favorite characters, who gives a fuck about what the wider community thinks? The Spiral Abyss tryhards whining about “endgame content” can kindly suck my left nut. Anyways, $4 a pound.

  53. That’s the funny thing. For a casual game I’d expect more skins. But instead they base their monetization model around constellations and weapons. I don’t get it

  54. Idk, for me this whole thing ends up being a gatekeeping problem. Casual players are entitled to the "no, please don't touch my Game", when in reality, tryhards just want to give use to their fully built characters. if genshin didnt have the incredible amount of stuff it has to make your characters stronger i would understand it, but man, the only thing you can constantly do is min-max your characters strength, and the combat system is complex and amazing. It just feels like a waste

  55. Just don't give it rewards and make it play for fun like events highest difficulties then, I don't see these creating anxieties.

  56. Will that really work? Do the people that want harder endgame really get all platinum in all combat events? I personally doubt it, but I guess I have no data on it so you can argue a case for it.

  57. Well in that case it becomes an issue of why make something only a tiny portion of the players will care about when they can try to find something that appeals to a much bigger audience. Even now there’s more players who dont do abyss than those who do, a harder version with no rewards is going to have even less players.

  58. Ok hear me out , instead of endgame , why not add a game mode where we can add annemies to our liking and choose their hp , so that we can try our teams there.

  59. Powercreep is a pain in the butt and easily the strongest toxin to any game. Genshin is perfect the way it is, since I mostly play it to de-stress. The periodical combat is good enough. Make those hard so hardcore combat players can have fun and casuals can just ignore it without losing out.

  60. The biggest irony in all of this is that Casual players actually DO care about the meta despite screaming at the top of their lungs with the whole "Waifu/Husbando > Meta" shit. I really don't care what argument you have against creating more characters for the potential additional endgame content, but if you're a so-called "Casual" then you SHOULD NOT even give a single flying fuck if they release a character that's objectively more powerful than your favorite waifu/husbando. Isn't that literally the point of having the "waifu/husbando > meta" mindset? literally being a hypocrite if you even chime in once in a discussion about endgame, meta and powercreep. I'm not gonna lose sleep over no more endgame content because frankly, I think I need to focus more on IRL stuff but reading casuals being so against endgame content which may or may not lead to new "powercrept" characters is just freaking hilarious when they insisted they're not a meta slave and don't care about the meta and only wanna pull characters just for the waifu/husbando factors/

  61. Ah, this community makes me depressed. One of the best combat systems in the medium and we are barely able to take advantage of it.

  62. I really wish they add some kind of public lobby where players can just hang around and talk to each other. No need for monsters. Just chat like Honkai's World Chat but Genshin.

  63. The difference-maker between FGO and Genshin is on the manner they create events, though. Events in FGO have EX stages that is pretty challenging, and you do have to try good for those. LB bosses were also pretty difficult. And even then FGO wasn't immune to powercreep, and meta tier lists were all about. Meanwhile what do we have to show for in Genshin events? Kill waves of lv120 Hilichurls and try to hit 5k score?

  64. FGO has the command spell mechanic that basically let's you brute force EX stages with minimal effort and team power though, and story revive cubes for LB bosses. That are mechanics to keep in mind. There is a reason story blue cubes were introduced right after the slight bump in LB difficulty in Atlantis.

  65. Powercreep huh... Seeing national team and taser team thriving the entire 2.X patch and possibly 3.X patch by the looks of it, I find it hard to believe

  66. Also, the point is exactly that. Powercreep right now is barely present because difficulty is stable. Raise the difficulty, and the community would start talking about mandatory constellations and characters all day. Even if you try to turn away from meta, this sort of thing has a domino impact as explained by op. Heck, I'm considering Nahida C1 based on what I've heard about it being "necessary", when I have never pulled for constellations. Same goes for Hu Tao.

  67. I mean isn't this exactly what I'm trying to say, that they are keeping it under control by not making Abyss harder. Mona/Ganyu/Venti was the best 1.0 team and it dropped off so much after 2.X made the abyss significantly harder the only time in genshin.

  68. Endgame content doesn’t need to be in the form of another “abyss like” mode, in fact that’s not what most people are asking for

  69. This. I think instead of more difficult content or even combat oriented give us something like say, MULTIPLAYER COOP ORIENTED CONTENT.

  70. It's been 2 years of just the abyss now, if they add a new endgame mode every 2 years and you still think that's some kind of slippery slope you're nuts

  71. Yep. And if they continually ramp up in difficulty, it will necessarily be Pay-to-win, which people will reasonably complain about. Like obviously you can pay to 36 star the abyss, but you don’t have to, you can just build up to it gradually over time, without feeling like the game is forcing you into it.

  72. I agree on all points. I just wanna add that, from a game development perspective it just isnt worth to spend development time on a gamemode that maybe 1% of the playerbase will enjoy, while you can spend that time and resources to make something most people will enjoy.

  73. I don't really think that's an issue for Mihoyo. They are a very stubborn company that will do absolutely unprofitable things like the CN Honkai Materials Book giveaway, mostly because they are privately run by otakus and generally has no responsiblities to outside shareholders. I just think they feel like adding it is a bad idea for the game rather than it being a cost benefit analysis.

  74. So much text yet I see a failure to understand that they could have just added a mode that is a bit easier than the abyss and uses your characters, which the TCG doesn't do.

  75. Obviously optional endgame combat content will to some degree affect how much people factor into pulling characters, the question is whether or not these effects justify a complete avoidance of combat endgame despite how casual-focused Genshin is as a game, and you haven't provided any compelling arguments that justifies a lack of such an endgame.

  76. I recommend people watch Zajef77's video on the endgame content news, specifically the 3 min segment on bounties, if nothing else. It succinctly demonstrates the issues with our overworld combat and endgame (his definition of endgame) systems and shows that the foundations for good endgame content already exist in the game, but just need tweaking.

  77. I disagree with some of your points here. For one, the teapot also has primos and resin locked behind it that requires time investment to get. Exploration is completely available to all players, but the primo rewards are behind chests, quests and secret achievements.

  78. For the teapot thing, the difference is that (discounting minor bonus from itto and yoi), it's something that has no relation on where you spend your primos. You can pull for anyone and still get full chest/quest/achievement/teapot stuff. Combat is different because it is directly tied to monetization.

  79. Current abyss is easy. Even if it’s not easy to you, you only lose a hundred primos a month. Challenging content means you can’t beat it with bad units. This means every new unit has to be good. This means content is now back to being easy. Buff the content. Repeat cycle. Power creep emerges. The only reason the current system is able to dodge power creep is the nonexistence of a truly difficult endgame and the lack of rewards of even the current endgame

  80. Like I said, because it increases the value of character power, so all pulls will concentrate on powerful units, so in order to keep revenue they have to keep releasing at least powerful enough units, which just due to how complicated character kit design is, will have a natural fluctuation which makes some characters go over the line and once enough of these characters are released, the bar is effectively raised and powercreep happens. It's kinda like how in MTG non-rotating formats just slowly get stronger because there is always a standard card or 2 slightly too strong and it adds up.

  81. YES, someone finally said it. The "anxiety" don't stem from afraid of losing out in harder content, it is afraid of not able to clear the game with your favorite characters. The core of the game is waifu and husbando collection + open world exploration, not action, Soul-like games. Catering to harder end game content means less meta waifu and husbando becomes even more irrelevant.

  82. Definitely. It's been a year since I've played the game, and the only thing that I'm actually upset about is that I don't have my favorite character, Diluc. The fact that Diluc receives the DPS check and the powercrept label makes me "anxious" -- I love his character and don't want him to fade in obscurity.

  83. If you’re focussing on exploration and collection, then why do you care about the end game that you’re most likely not going to engage with? I feel like the crux of the counter argument against more end game content is just that primogems are going to be involved, and that causes too much fomo.

  84. I want to input here that while I understand your points, the comparison to FGO is wildly inaccurate. While FGO doesn’t have dedicated endgame content, it’s made up for by the virtue of the actual story chapters being legitimately difficult to complete. In addition, its events have challenge levels that specifically give significant rewards that can be used in building characters. Mihoyo has decided to pull back on making challenge modes in events actually difficult to complete for majority of the player base, while also neutering the rewards. The balance, I think, should be giving actual rewards others than a pittance of mora, for beating actually challenging levels in combat focused events. Obviously locking primos behind such challenge levels would probably cause an uproar, but locking a crown or some such reward behind some kind of challenge mode would be a welcome incentive.

  85. This probably the worst post I’ve read on this topic so far. The best argument you had in this wall of text was the FGO comparison. FGO while a mega behemoth as you say, has its own severe problems. Also, proper character writing can always coexist with good gameplay. It doesn’t have to be mutually exclusive.

  86. While true that fgo had a lot of problems, the success of it is definitely due to them being able to assign value onto their units via other means (story here) apart from power. This means that FGO is disincentivized to have endgame content (they have actually no permanent endgame), and I believe the same situation is present for genshin.

  87. With genshin being f2p, hoyo has to identify and appeal to the largest demo of the playerbase. There have been tons of polls on this sub and actual endgame players are vastly outnumbered by casuals.

  88. Making a replayable version of the Labarynth event with maybe a few added extras to keep it interesting is hardly going to be a challenge for them to implement, they already have the foundation and more, just tweak it for a lot of replayability and don't tie any rewards to it so no has to fear missing out any limited time primos and you satisfy the players.

  89. Point (3) poisons the well from the very start. There is a reason Kokomis first ever bannner (back then believed to be weak) and every itto banner (husbando yes, but geo element that synergizes in geo teams which is the worst element) performed poorly.

  90. While it's possible that they are due to meta reasons, the fact that itto isn't super popular in CN and Kokomi's botched story quest may be the dominating factor. The fact that kokomi 2 performed poorly after she was viewed as much stronger provides some evidence for this. I won't say I'm definitely right though, for sure.

  91. The only thing I want is something to do in co op aside from spending resin, to play with friends or people in general...

  92. I understand what OP is saying. but my vision of endgame is different. Not the abyss dps check timer. But Coop would work. It will take me alot of explain but it would serve for both hardcore and casual together. Though certain toxicity is inevitable in coop game here how I envision:

  93. I still think they can have more endgame combat content. But they can do things to neutralize the rewards to lessen variance from powercreep+min/max characters and playstyle. They can also do things to neutralize power level among chars - eg require using chars of certain elements/regions/weapons, encourage wider use of characters rather than focusing on a set few, give preset chars (they already do this), making builds almost irrelevent, etc.

  94. I just feel no reason to play if I can already beat everything easily. The quest line is… fine. But I want something akin to wow Raids where I can push a bit further each time. Have some more complexity to the fights. Things like the event with Albedo in the mountain where you had mechanics to deal with and got better rewards on higher challenge level and it actually felt good to do. Currently there’s nothing stable that you get to progress in besides abyss which only changes so infrequently. I built all my favorite characters. Logging in to do dailies and save primos for the next husbando to build him in a week and be back to dailies is just boring for the long term .

  95. As an ultra casual who literally just go over the world to explore and sight see, all i want is a new world level without increasing the level cap and artifact powers.

  96. This post would make a lot more sense if the best units in the game (XL/Bennett/XQ) weren't free or extremely easy to obtain.

  97. An optional mode like endless would do if rewards were currency for the paimon shop so people can aim to get enough to purchase 4* cons and weapons since it takes an eternity and almost nobody has the patience for anything other than more wishes

  98. There is this idea I had for a long time that would be a good point. What if they make something like spiral abyss but made by players?

  99. They could create an "endless" wave domain where each wave of enemies gets more difficult. Let all rewards be obtainable after 10 or so waves but players can test their teams endurance to see how many waves they can survive. Sort of like an Abyss with no end. Make it hard enough to challenge players to get all the rewards, but still obtainable while players who want higher difficulties keep going

  100. You seem to be saying that harder endgame content will cause issues. And I don't disagree. But there can be more endgame content without it being harder than 12-3.

  101. Any nerfs to gacha products will result in huge uproar and even lawsuits from players, remember the Yae miko targeting change drama? This doesn't work for gacha games. If it did, they would have nerfed benny and xingqiu a long time ago.

  102. I still don't understand why anyone would feel anxious from the addition of side content that would be fine even without rewards.

  103. Correct me if I'm not understanding. But how does optional content affect power creep? If it's optional already then you're not going to care about said optional content. So you're not going to care about the power creep that the optional content creates.

  104. Well I’m not even necessarily asking for content that is harder than floor 12 but just more content that is challenging. Our power level is so insane already and I don’t thing they need to make anything that much harder just more of that so called difficult content. The making people want to spend more on the game and completionist argument is a bit silly to me as well, if I want to beat the game with my characters I will make them better. I’m not going to piss myself and cry to hoyoverse that my characters are under equips for the activity I’m in, it creates drive and incentive when something is difficult and has nice rewards.

  105. That's fair, but I believe its not only the difficulty but also the quantity of the hard endgame that will have a impact. While an amber main can beat 12-3 with someresets, having to do it again for a second mode, especially if it's a long mode like a rogue run, might make the whole thing significantly more difficult to the point where she may be not be considered to be "viable", for example.

  106. If I understand OP correctly, the primary objective of the post is to refute the argument for adding more combat based endgame content does not affect the casual players in anyway, and that there is no down in doing so.

  107. The only thing I want hoyo to do is fix housing. There is no motivation to make a wonderful area in your teapot, because it's all limited to load. I had a big plan.. but my plan ended at about 15% of what I wanted to do, because I had already hit the load limit. So I gave up, and just placed whatever could get me to the max rank for the currency. Now I only come back to get my currency and make new furniture for the battlepass. Otherwise, I don't build. No point when I can't do any building past 4 trees, a cat and a rock, lol

  108. Everyone is also forgetting he fact that Honkai have so mucn endgame content that its only for those hardcore players can actually properly play it.

  109. You imply that if we get harder combat content, characters' value will be biased towards their kit and strength. I think it's like that already. If you look at banner revenues, stronger characters like Ayaka, Raiden and Kazuha have made way more money than niche or weaker characters.

  110. I was about to flip out with this no end game news. But then, I suddenly remembered that my queen, HoV, is now useless in Honkai abyss due to power creep. This is actually considerate of the Devs now that I think about it.

  111. Hopefully there will be better competitors in the future for genshin cos I am getting tired of these swollen headed devs and their white knights.

  112. I would hope so too, because having good games like genshin come out is always a good thing. But currently only Kuro games has a semblance of something remotely hopeful, and it's years out and it might have to contend with 4-5 region genshin when it releases, which is a tall ask. Gacha game devs had been too complacent in the past decade, and only MHY has done anything to really push the envelope, and now they are reaping the rewards.

  113. I hope that happens, gotta find a home for all the meta slave who just left genshin. Maybe tof is a good home for them.

  114. There won't be competitors, just alternatives. These alternatives would attract the hardcores but not the casuals which made Genshin such a giant. I mean why do you think they can brazenly say to the hardcores to basically play other game? Because they know those hardcores aren't their money maker anymore.

  115. ITs not about "Hardcore"content even. It's to play the characters I have. Anywhere. Right now to even play the characters I have I have to Ignore everything. My Ayato is on some random 3 star weapon, and Def main stat, lol. Bounties? I use My support, second support, ups, his dead. I didn't spent resin in 6 months, lol xD Mora is useless, it increase character power, talent are useless, weapon are only cosmetic.

  116. This is a decent post until you realize endgame content doesn't just have to be Spiral Abyss floor 13+. More endgame content doesn't necessarily equate to abyss powercreep.

  117. We don’t want harder endgame content, we want endgame content with more replay ability. Also your arguments don’t make any sense to me. You’re talking a lot about how new endgame content will affect popularity and power creep. However, none of that matters if there’s nowhere for players to use the new and fancy characters. Rn most experienced players can clear dailies and domains with 1 character because they’re just so piss easy. Also, genshin is a game about investment. If you invest enough into any unit, they’ll be viable. While the old units might be weaker, they won’t necessarily become unplayable as long as you have invested into them, as it’s not a pvp game.

  118. I think people continue to misrepresent how many people whale for meta. There isn't a single non meta unit representing top banner sales.

  119. Banner sales don’t represent meta alone. I can tell you that I pulled for raiden and constellations having nothing to do with meta or abyss. I loved the character and still do. I’ve never tried to get past floor 10 in abyss and maybe never will but couldn’t care less.

  120. I kinda wonder about that because yea the way the game is made endgame is difficult to implement however saying that people will pull for meta instead of favs and enjoy the game less is ridiculous when

  121. Like I said, that is only true when you don't interact with the community. Meta power influences character popularity. Kokomi fanart increased after she was found to be pretty powerful. Yoimiya still suffers from low popularity to this day. Content creators telling you a unit is bad will be recommended to you on youtube. It is hard to be fully free from the influence of meta

  122. I mean either of us could be right, since the original dev comment made no clarification. But I generally see a lot of the type I talked about in the CN community, which is where a lot of the data probably comes from, so I feel okay with my assumption.

  123. I hear all of what you're saying and none of those are good reasons for the game to have nearly no challenging content for endgame players. They don't need to put primos behind the hard content. You don't need to spend to clear Spiral Abyss with ease since most of the best characters in the game are 1.0 5 stars. I don't care if casuals are anxious about a totally optional gamemode.

  124. powercreep my ass, instead now abyss is getting more and more easier, I can 36stars with 4 stars character with very non ideal stat like with just under 120% cd, nowdays abyss is more about team comp and what element to use if your character is under power, I was farming like crazy to get good artifact and still cant get one after a year and I thought i will never 36 stars abyss but with how abyss is now easier, I finally 36 stars abyss consistenly with bad artifact stats

  125. The TL:DR of this post is basically…genshin would actually need to balance kits more and would not be allowed to powercreep characters every two patches if there was endgame content.

  126. They act like we want a major shift on the game in any significant way when we simply want more ways to actually utilize the builds we have been making and all the different teams etc. The game feels punishing to people who enjoy and play it more than others, hell even to people who whale for reasons other than waifu collecting. The fact that we only have spiral abyss to stretch our characters while 95% of the game is character building is downright pathetic for the gacha game that makes the most money.

  127. There's gonna come a point where people are just not gonna care anymore. What would be the point of getting a new character, leveling them up, grinding for artifacts, ascending and etc if it means absolutely nothing? Character appeal can only go so far, people will eventually start realizing that waifu/husbando number 7451438 isn't much different from the rest and doesn't provide anything unique then you realize you're left with this huge sandbox with nothing to do in it. When was the last time anyone has gone to dragonspine?

  128. I think for people who want a serious gaming experience, it really is just time to move on to a different game, preferably non-gacha and non-mobile.

  129. Haha, perhaps, but I don't really think Genshin lacks in "gaming". Combat perhaps, but exploration wise I think it's probably the best tombraider game we got in a decade, lol. I would prefer not to equate "serious gaming" with combat. Just for video games in general.

  130. It's not about having a hardcore experience its about having a goal to work towards that gives the fact that every reward structure in the game is build to increase your character power a purpose.

  131. All this “end game” talk, like, ladies and lads, we aren’t half way done with sumeru, and we are maybe half of the way done with exploring the regions.

  132. I'm just gonna save this and direct people here because you said everything I had in mind. I love that you are not invalidating the opinions of others but presenting a realistic point on the trade-off that comes with optional "endgame" content.

  133. Zajef already made a much better video and in there he suggested stronger bounty overworld enemies that reward you a measly 20k more mora.

  134. Well all I know is that I find Honkai Impact a lot more replayable and Genshin currently feels like a slug to me. The only reason I pull for characters in Genshin is because I like them; I find zero use for most of them as I barely every do Abyss anyways, since I consider it an aweful mode.

  135. I get it, but MHY is probably aiming for a exploration based content game with events tiding people over between map drops. I think combat is just being sidelined because it got too tangled with the monetization.

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